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Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1868 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Nov. 21 2000, 00:12 Is it a joke, or something serious ("dead mummy" in TB2) ? Back to top

bennyboy Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: July 2000 Posted: Nov. 21 2000, 05:43 I don't know either, Mike was supposedly totally pissed out of his skull when he did the first TB Piltdown Man. I found the Piltdown Man on TB1 to be genuinely disturbing and I really though it was what made Part 2 so great. Howvever "Altered State" is a different matter, I found it hilairious and strangely out of place (though I think thats the way it was intended) precisely because of the kids voices in the background and the dudes singing "ki-kesay, ki-ke-say". Incidentally I thought "Outcast" on TB3 was serious and it was good to listen to too. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 21 2000, 18:41 IMHO the spoken voices in AS are intended as a child's and her mother's voice, talking about the strange utterings of the Piltdown Man just like they were observing him, like a wild animal in a zoo. But the mummy isn't really listening to her daughter and so she tells her "you dead, mummy." Bennyboy---> Yeah, the "kinkesey" bits are meant to be funny. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 21 2000, 18:42 ...and yes, Outcast is meant to be serious. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Alnilam Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: April 2001 Posted: April 27 2001, 15:57 I get a really odd, vivid picture in my head when I listen to the piltdown man in TB1 and in altered state. In TB1, I originally thought it was a werewolf, mainly because of the howls, and when he says "Flo!" and "Shuboch!" he is followed by a bunch of chanting men, and they sound like an angry mob chasing the werewolf. In Altered State, for some reason, I imagine a mother and her daughter walking down the boardwalk of Venice Beach, California. There are surfers and, as always, the man with the music box and dancing monkey, and then there's some caveman guy with sunglasses, a Hawaiian shirt unbottoned, and a loin cloth. The piltdown sound is also a lot more humourous. Quote Ohschtoosch divita dryonooooo! -Alnilam -------------- -Alni Back to top

Hillbilly Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: June 2001 Posted: June 05 2001, 11:29 On TB Part 2 Mike plays something called "moribund chorus", which I until now thought referred to the "piltman" growls. So now my questions are; 1. What is really a "piltman"? 2. What is a "moribund chorus"? Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 05 2001, 14:10 Regarding the Piltdown Man, here are good links/discussions of it: http://www.tiac.net/users/cri/piltdown.html http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/piltdown.html The Piltdown Man was an archaeological/paleontological hoax perpetrated by Charles Dawson around 1912. His hominid "specimen," which had been escavated from the Piltdown Quarry in Sussex, combined features of h. sapiens and hominoids (i.e., members of the superfamily Hominoidea that includes both us and the great apes [today that would be gorillas, chimps, orangutans, and gibbons]). The PD was thought to be the "missing link" between us and other hominoids. As I recall, Dawson had died before he could be held accountable for any of this. BTW, regarding the sounds of early hominids and their capacity for language and noises, there's lots of research on this. Bbtw, there are bone flutes dating back 80,000+ years (recent in our family history) --probably older--wonder if music predated language, or did language predate music? Probably no less that 500 papers written on that topic, too... TTFN, --Mary-Carol hmmm....I actually don't know if I answered part of your question, but guess I'll post in anyway. ((-: -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: June 05 2001, 17:41 I was never sure on the moribund cchorus thing (moribund meaning close to death, for those of you wondering). I guess that it's perhaps the howls during that section or something like that. I'll have another listen some time, see if I can come up with a better answer and even see if I can get an answer out of some people who might know for sure. On the seriousness of it...I'm not certain the original section is really 'meant' to be anything - like many parts of Mike's music, to me it just 'is'. But the sounds that Mike produces during that section are, to me, not funny at all (funny being the way some people interpret it) - they suggest torment. Maybe Mike was just playing around, but what it seems to reveal is something far deeper... Looking at the subject of humour though, we could look at some of those TV shows that use home video footage (you know the kind, I'm sure - they have one in the UK called "You've been framed", where people send in home video clips of unfortunate events and things). Some of what they show is actually more tragic than funny - people having quite bad accidents and things. Yet people's response is to laugh at it. There are a fair few reasons for it, but a basic way of looking at it is that sometimes people see things as funny which they are actually having some difficulty with in their mind - when all the emotions are mixed up and confused, people just laugh. Well, it's just a thought... Altered State seems to be more of a parody - I don't think it would be possible to try and produce something of the intensity of the original without it sounding forced and silly...So Mike makes it more 'crazy' instead... I'll stop before I go any further...I think that's quite enough for the moment Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: June 06 2001, 15:23 As for the Moribund Chorus, I've started another topic. Piltdown Man: I've never wondered whether it's 'funny' or 'serious'. When I first listened to it, I thought "Wow, here's someone using crazy snarls and howls to go with the music, and... IT WORKS!". To me, it's just another (successful) experiment by Mike. Like the Drunken Hornpipe or the children on On Horseback. Or many parts in Amarok. On TB2 and 3, maybe Mike felt it would do no good to try the same thing again. So he tried variations. BTW, There's a similar thing in Pink Floyd's A Spanish Piece. Anybody knows that? -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 06 2001, 16:46 I've always thought of the PD section as containing something dark within that has been there a very long time and is in desperate need of release (in TBIII I might compare it with the "out demons out" section). Regarding "moribund," it does indeed mean "close to death," or "being in the state of dying" or "approaching death" or "being in a state of inactivity or obsolescence." Hmm...does this mean that regarding computers & computer programs, instead of saying that they are either "state of the art" [which means they never work quite right] or "obsolete" [meaning they need to be replaced by something "state of the art"] we could just say "state of the art" or "moribund?" The "moribund computer." The "moribund electronic chorus." Think I got a little too close to that old wallpaper glue today! TTFN, M-C -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

Stu-bular bell Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: Nov. 2001 Posted: Nov. 09 2001, 18:03 I love the Piltdown man. Not many people realise that beneath the growls, there IS a tune and rhythm which fir into the song. It is comedy though. Stuart Back to top

Speednik Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: July 2002 Posted: July 17 2002, 06:29 It's primal scream therapy with a tune, folks. "Schobon woch doch winowwow". etc. ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! alongside the guitars being my favourite bit. Weirdly I find the drums and bass to be creepy. It may just be the way they're recorded, or the fact they sound like early 70s metal, but played at half the speed. Eerie. -------------- "Jean Michel Jarre is a fraud" - Bill Bailey Back to top

Tubular Cobra Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: July 2002 Posted: July 21 2002, 17:32 Sometimes i can Do The Piltdown Man I like the Shoba and Shaka Part Close to End and The Stuff At the Beginning! Oh Whatever i like it all! I Like The Stuff at the Beginning! And The Stuff Before The Piltdown Man! I love the Guitar Sounding Like a Bagpipe! -------------- ooo! Look at my Pretty Black Stripes! :D and btw - Mike Oldfield Ownz You!(Well Not Really) Back to top

maria Group: Members Posts: 928 Joined: July 2002 Posted: Jan. 12 2003, 17:09 the piltdown man is a great section in tubular bells… actually the whole second part of tb is… it suggests me strong feelings moving, it starts with hovering gloominess  that gradually becomes sadness and the piltdown man makes all that explode, it’s like a volcano… or like the most ‘animal’ voice a human can have… i see there something half way between death and sex… and  i feel there a kind of liberation… later the guitars come in a peaceful mood and the organs speak glad and go into the sailor’s hornpipe… so the storm brings a blue morning altered state is also great to me… comparing them what i can see is that the guitars keep the same strength but human voice is different… in altered state it is already elaborated… experience make adults disguise in some way and things get smoother with time. the piltdown man is very pure… don’t find a better word now… -------------- ...morning and evening i'm flying, i'm dreaming... Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Jan. 13 2003, 12:48 Strange with the Piltdown Man is you may think it's so inhuman and scary sounding as a result of having been slowed down in the tape recorder. The thing is, even pitched up higher, it still sounds inhuman and animal-like...scary indeed... Back to top

maria Group: Members Posts: 928 Joined: July 2002 Posted: Jan. 14 2003, 18:32 really a strange voice... what i ask myself is... how will the piltdown man sound thirty years later? regarding the re-recording my biggest curiosity is about this section... is it possible to repeat that? hard job there, imo... -------------- ...morning and evening i'm flying, i'm dreaming... Back to top

Vinz Group: Members Posts: 253 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Jan. 15 2003, 05:10 I think that Mike has answered this question officially... He will take the original Piltdown Man from 1973 ! -------------- Rejoignez la Tubular Mailing List francophone ! http://www.tubular.free.fr/tubular.php Back to top

maria Group: Members Posts: 928 Joined: July 2002 Posted: Jan. 15 2003, 05:43 yep, i know the official answer... as far i understood it would be re-recorded like the original, that’s why i said it could be a hard job not only for his throat but for the feelings there seems to be in that voice and my question is if doing this, thirty years later, the piltdown man (not tricky but ‘throat-played’) will sound  with the same anger and 'animal fear' as the original... i hope so. -------------- ...morning and evening i'm flying, i'm dreaming... Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Sep. 20 2005, 21:39 I've just been playing my Boxed LP of Tubular Bells, was searching for a topic, regarding the mix of this , as it sounds different to my ears, compared to my LPand CD of Tubular Bells, I happened to stumble across this topic. To me Piltdown Man sounds as if it's some kind of release for pent up  feelings.  Anger, frustration ,sadness and torment, spring to mind.  PDM to me starts off as something dark and gloomy, menacing, something at it's most raw primeval  and animalistic. All the growling, grunting and howling gradually build up into one great big almighty  cathartic scream.   WAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!! .  I find if I'm angry or frustrated I often play Tubular Bells, I do find the Piltdown Man section very theraputic, I always feel in a  much better mood after playing it   . I know the  Piltdown Man section appears on the 1971 Demos, without the growling, grunting and howling and scream.  I don't know when the "vocals" were added, if it was a spur of the moment thing after a drinking session.  I believe  the "vocals" go much deeper into the emotions Mike was feeling at the time , than simply some crazy  drunken idea. However  it all works perfectly     . -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: Sep. 21 2005, 06:03 Quote (moonchildhippy @ Sep. 20 2005, 21:39) I know the  Piltdown Man section appears on the 1971 Demos, without the growling, grunting and howling and scream.  I don't know when the "vocals" were added, if it was a spur of the moment thing after a drinking session. Virgin asked Mike for some vocals on the record because they were nervous about an all-instrumental album.  The yelling and grunting on Piltdown Man was his compromise.  The first of many for Mr Branson..... Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

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