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Topic: only one truly memorable theme?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
hal Offline




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Posted: June 25 2003, 15:29

the other day I was in the kitchen making a cup of tea and my father for some reson got round to discussing Mike Oldfield, he put forward the argument that MO has only produced 1 instantly recognisable piece of music or theme unlike similar instrumental artists like Vangelis or Jean Michael Jarre.  I have been an Oldfield fan for many years, I have the back catalogue etc, and although I find MO music far more rich and rewarding than these other two musicians I found it hard to argue against him.  I realise that unlike these othere two Oldfields music is more a whole piece across an album ulike individual pieces of music and you could say moolight shadows very recognisable etc or it all depends on familiarity, but when (as a fan) the very fact that he has returned yet again to this piano motif with its haunting repeating E (as to agree with Toby on another page) is sadening.  As I sit here I can think of a number of Jarre hooks and Vangelis themes that most would say "yeah I know that", but as a musician it wouldnt be true to say that Mo could claim this.  Whether this is a bad thing is debatable I
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SCprogfan
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Posted: June 25 2003, 16:26

Vangelis definitely has the one recognizable theme, but also has Blade Runner, which probably helped save him from the "one theme only" fate.  It is interesting to note how many times Vangelis has used the Chariots Of Fire note structure, and variations of it all through his recorded output.  That first six note melody appeared at least as far back as his Heaven and Hell album, so at least he can't be accused of taking it from the success of Chariots only.  By the way, I think Vangelis is a musical genius.
:)
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Tellur Offline




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Posted: June 26 2003, 08:29

Vangelis has the "1492 Theme" and the "Blade Runner Theme" and his "Jon Themes". Each of Jarre's albums is a theme on it's own. Come to think pf it, Mike's themes are only known to Mike's fans except his "TB Theme" and his "commercial" songs.
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Fingers Offline




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Posted: June 26 2003, 09:43

Hmm...
Jarre - Oxy2 and 4, Equ 5, MagF2, Rendez4, but not a lot after that...
Vangelis - Pulstar, Bladerunner Titles, Bladerunner Love Theme, Chariots Titles, Chung Kuo, 1492Titles, Mythodea (you know it if you watched the NASA Mars stuff), Somehow I'll find my way home, big list of memorable stuff...
Oldfield - TB Intro, Hornpipe/Blue Peter, Portsmouth, In Dulci Jubilo, Moonlight Shadow, Family Man

That's off the top of my head - themes I could hum or come across on tv channels/radio play etc.... Was driving across Spain last week and in a blur of words I didn't understand I suddenly heard "she had...." and along came Family Man. Those drums are very silly, but instantly appealing!

I think all three of the artists above are losing their creative edge just as artists such as Robert Miles are finding theirs. (Check out Organik if you still think Robert Miles is only good for bouncy europop with piano lead
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Holger Offline




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Posted: June 26 2003, 13:11

Quote (Fingers @ June 26 2003, 09:43)
Oldfield - TB Intro, Hornpipe/Blue Peter, Portsmouth, In Dulci Jubilo, Moonlight Shadow, Family Man

Perhaps To France.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: June 26 2003, 13:14

I don't think any of you are looking widely enough. If you just look at TB alone its brimming with themes and riffs that have obviously influenced (I'm tempted to say ripped off by) other people. People alway's think of the opening piano riff when they consider TB but there are other pieces in part one that have been noticably influencial. The idea and composition of the 'super bass riff' which ends part one (the MC section) is noticable in some dance music, certainly in the idea of it being hypnotically repetative yet melodicaly interesting. The bit on TB part 1 now called 'Thrash' has been ripped off fairly often as have other sections. The thing is, and newer fans who think TB is over rated should respect this, TB was pretty much the first album of its kind, no one had done anything like it before (or arguably since including Mike). Remember albums like Oxygene by JMJ came along a good few years later, Indeed you could equally argue the JMJ has only come up with only one memorable theme - Oxygene part 4.

I think at this point you have to differentiate between whats artisticaly memorable and commercialy memorable, they're by no means mutualy the same. Mike has written tons of artisticaly memorable themes, you could plunder Amarok alone for quite a few but look how well known that album is. The term 'instantly recognisable' may well utterly vary depending on where you go in the world. Go to Spain and a lot of Mike's musical themes will be instantly recognisable because he's very, very popular there and obviously his sound and style of playing and composing is much apreciated.

Here in the UK I think you'd probably be quite suprised at how 'instantly recognisable' a lot of his music outside TB is to the general public, his public profile here may well be down the toilet but a lot of his music is still famous. To the newer, younger record buying public it may well only be TB thats famous, but equaly what JMJ or Vangelis tunes do you think the avarage teenager has heard? Probably not many. To my generation (I'm 31) and certainly the generation ahead of me loads of Mike's albums will be farly well recognised. Albums like Five Miles Out and Crises (not to mention the 70's stuff) were all very popular in their day. I remember when the opening theme of Platinum was used as the theme music for one of the most popular kids TV shows here in the UK when I was quite young. Certainly during the 80's Mike was much more of a legendery music figure than he is now, now I'm not sure how he's percieved in the UK.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: June 26 2003, 18:35

To be honest, I don't think that Jean Michel Jarre and Vangelis have produced many themes recognisable to people outside their fans (this is if we're talking about things being instantly recognisable to the man on the street). Outside of Oxygene IV, there aren't many tracks by Jarre which I'd find familiar, and I know that even fewer would be recognisable to friends of mine. With Vangelis, I couldn't even swear that I'd recognise the Blade Runner theme and I know a lot of people who definitely wouldn't - that kind of leaves him with Chariots of Fire.

If we're talking about being instantly recognisable after having heard the album (and this is the kind of division Toby was making), I think Mike Oldfield has probably come up with loads, as the above messages testify, though to be honest I couldn't answer conclusively, as even the forgettable bits of his albums would be recognisable to me.
I may have an inherent bias against Vangelis, as despite having listened to numerous albums of his, I've never found anything particularly memorable on them. Jarre fairs a little better, as I think at least a few have stuck...
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hal
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Posted: June 26 2003, 21:41

Obviously a debate like this does depend on our definition of memorable, also what has been placed in the commercial arena (in the form of adverts etc) to allow it to become memorable.  Going back to my father (again) he kept asking me what a piece of music he kept hearing on numerous ads was, it was angel by massive attack (teardrop also as well as another), to him now they are very memorable and he likes them, yet if Id of played them to him without him having the t.v starting point he'd of said they were shit.  

O.k what were talking about here "memorablity" is difficult to quantify, so when I read down our responses what we all tend to be touching upon is the lenght of creative flame.  How long a musician goes until he begins to repeat himself.  Now again every musician is repeating someone else already in a sense, but we all have a purple patch.  This is sometimes defined by our shelf life where once you were in vogue now your old hat, unfortunetly this is the problem with the music press in britain.  So is it reinvention, which I think is just a new coat of paint, or is it a lack of ideas, I think of the floyd, divison bell in recent years without waters, a polished product good attention but waters without the floyd goes unnoticed.  Mccartney one of the greatest songwriters of all time cant seem to find "it" again. yet having said this there are post beatles tracks by the mac that if on abbey road would be standards.

Incantation part4 with that very distinct glockenspiel with the female vocal is very very hooky and if that was on an ad "ooo I love that dear whos that by..."  

Yet having said this though if were honest in recent years he has recycled himself.  I get the feeling that Oldfield has been destracted by other activites and projects and hasnt wanted to or needed to put together a strong work.  Throw away albums voyager, mill bell, tres lunas, guitars dont warrent return visits really even tub3 isnt as rich as tub2.  So come on Toby my son has he lost it man!!  I would argue that across all of the albums since s.o.d.e he hasnt produced a very distinct standout tune that could be used outside the album apart from top of the morning the piano piece on tb3 this is lovely. Alot of the other stuff is more chill out floaty drifting worryingly close to musac on albums like tres lunas.
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Fingers Offline




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Posted: June 27 2003, 05:03

By memorable - if you heard it you'd think "i know that...." You might not know the name, but you know the tune. That's what memorable means. I see no problem in understanding that!

I agree that TV exposure helps, but then that's because it triggers the MEMORY thus making it memorable! Oxy4 is known to most as the old theme to Tomorrows World, Oxy2 is the Citroen Ad. Adiemas is the Delta Airlines Ad, The piece everyone calls "Chariots of Fire" is actually called Titles - Chariots of Fire being a 20minute piece off of the same album - but who cares... it's the MEMORABLE piece from that film.

Hence use of the TB Intro in The Exorcist will mean that's his most memorable tune, and Moonlight Shadow will become known as the Dave Angel Theme.

Fingers

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Satyagraha Offline




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Posted: June 27 2003, 11:13

It may be that Mike Oldfield will be remembered mainly for TB and Moonlight Shadow, being his two greatest commercial successes.

But I bet he will be remembered for more than that: he's the inventor of side-long compositions, he's the one who first made a succesful attempt at merging rock sounds and playing with "classical" composition techniques, his sound, playing and style is (or used to be) far mor recognizable than those other guys', he invented his own guitar sound, he was one of the first to make entire albums all by himself.

MO is in my opinion a far greater innovator than Vangelis and Jean-Michel Jarre.


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Holger Offline




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Posted: June 27 2003, 14:10

What I find interesting is that, even with the albums of Mike's that I don't like so much, I still find myself constantly humming the tunes. To me at least, almost everything by Mike is very memorable.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: June 27 2003, 14:24

I think the answer to the original question lies within each of the posts given above. Whats memorable to you may not be memorable to me and visa-versa. Generaly speaking I think when someone talks about a piece of art or music being memorable they're talking about it being of a high quality, above average, standing out from the rest. Lots of Mike's output may be memorable to one person but utterly forgetable to another.

What will Mike be remembered for in years to come? Well we'll have to wait and see. Tubular Bells obviously and probably his own fixation with TB will be very high on the list. I'm sure he'll be remembered as one of Britains greatest musicians and composers by those who care but also as a very eratic one, someone who tried to be to many things and quite often not focusing on what he was really good at. But all this is a 30th aniversary re-cap, from my point of view. I do truely hope he begins to do what he does best.

Has Mike lost it? I think he's lost his way in recent years and partly lost his abiltiy to make the correct desicions regarding both his own musical output and also at the end of the day doing things that would help his career. I don't think for a second he's lost his ability to write amazingly beautifull instrumental music but judging from those recent interviews he does seem unsure about where music in general is going, including his own. Which brings us back round to his need to focus and perhaps re-evaluate what fundamentaly he's trying to say as an artist/musician.

On the subject of Jarre/Vangelis/Oldfield. For me the fact that they all write instrumental music is the beginning and end of all comparison (at an artistic level). My love of Mike's stuff is much more born out of the fact that fundamentaly he's a folk musician born out of the strongly warm and atmospheric world that the best folk music inhabits. For me TB, HR, Ommadawn Incantations, Amarok are all at their core folk albums with a few extra magic ingredients. Thats why albums like TSODE, TB2, and the best of his 80's albums, although good and certainly with some beautifull moments don't have as many of those magical ingredients and are certainly quite far removed from Mike's folk origins. Of course the other side of the argument is that a lot of these other albums are a celebration of Mike's diversity as a composer and musician. There is the problem however that when you diverse to strongly, as Mike has on occation, you loose track of what you were originaly about.
So for me Jarre and Vangelis are quite different to Mike in terms of background and output. I'm much more familiar with Jarre's career than I am with Vangelis's. I agree with what Korgscrew say's above in that I find a lot of his music really quite forgetable. I've got a few of his albums sitting here, China, Albedo.39, Heaven and Hell and a best of compilation and they contain some nice music, I rate China the best, but I find most of his stuff very, very unexciting, he has his obvious style and character of playing but there's something about it which is curiously lacking in any engagement. It's a bit cruel to say it's merely musak but it's heading down that road.
Jean-Michel Jarre is a real craftsman in his field. He's composed some superb music and that coupled with a genius ability to make synth's sound like nothing on earth has rightfully given him his place in the musical world. I think he became a real victim of that 'big is better' 80's (when he was at the peak of his popularity) mentality with regards to his intresting though slightly silly concerts. He has had trouble playing down that perception that he's only known as that Frenchman with his laser harp image, but like Mike with TB he's the only one to blame.
Unlike Mike Jarre has never been that prolific, he released only 3 albums in the 90's whereas Mike released 8 (including MB) I sign that Jarre may well be out of ideas.
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: June 28 2003, 22:33

I'm not really qualified to comment on Vangelis or JMJ, having not heard much of their work at all. However, I believe a theme will only be 'memorable' if people have actually heard it. They will only be able to remember something if they know about it, and in MOs case, there are not all that many albums that many people have heard, apart from TB and Moonlight Shadow. For me at least, every single album that Mike has done has at least one simple, memorable theme, but since MO is not as widely heard as JMJ or Vangelis, they will never be 'memorable' in the mind of the public.

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TOBY Offline




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Posted: June 29 2003, 13:15

Actualy Mike is easily as equaly heard as both JMJ and Vangelis both in terms of album sales and in terms of commercial use of his music. True, Vangelis has done a fair few soundtracks but Jarre hasn't done any and Vangelis doesn't have his own equivelent of TB or Oxygene (ie a massively selling signature album) I'm not sure what Vangelis's album sales are worldwide but I'd be very suprised if they were anywhere near Mike's. Jarre has possibly sold more than Mike but it won't be by much.

Like I said in the above post, I think you'd be suprised at how 'memorable' a fair amount of Mike's work is, certainly across Europe. Remember a lot of his eighties albums sold in very respectable quantities.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: July 01 2003, 10:40

One little thing, Mike didn't invent sidelong compositions. That honour falls to Procol Harum. Not even "album-long" songs he invented, Jethro Tull got there first.

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Fingers Offline




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Posted: July 01 2003, 12:11

For heavens sake people... all of the "..invented side long compositions...". What rubbish.

Since classical orchestral pieces were being recorded side long compositions have existed. the only thing new that MO or Procal Harem etc did was create a long piece of continuous music in a folk/rock genre. It was unusual IF you only listened to that genre. It was certainly unusual to hear a 25 minute piece broadcast on the evening rock show... but you'll have heard lots of people listening to longer pieces on their "stereograms" :) if you were only into that sort of music.
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stitchfan Offline




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Posted: July 02 2003, 05:58

I like MO's album long compositions most like Crises.
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Satyagraha Offline




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Posted: July 02 2003, 10:05

Quote
"..invented side long compositions...". What rubbish.

Since classical orchestral pieces were being recorded side long compositions have existed


You're missing my point entirely. Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells was the first non-classical album to feature a side-long composistion.

Quote
One little thing, Mike didn't invent sidelong compositions. That honour falls to Procol Harum


Procol Harum's "In Held Twas In I" from 1968 lasts for 17 minutes, but it's not the only listed composition on side two of "Shine On Brightly". It's also labeled a rock suite, not a single composition. And it does indeed sound a lot more fragmented than Tubular Bells.

And I'd like Fingers to name one classical work with a movement long enough to fill an entire LP side. I doubt that even Richard Wagner, Gustav Mahler or Anton Bruckner wrote many movements of that length.


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SCprogfan
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Posted: July 02 2003, 12:19

Vangelis did win an Acamedy Award for best motion picture score with Chariots, so that would probably be his "big album".  I don't want to turn the Mike forum into a Vangelis one, but as a big fan of his, I would urge anyone who has dismissed his music to listen again, especially if you only have his most "popular" albums.  (China, Heaven and Hell...)  Seek out things like See You Later, Spiral, Antarctica... I could go on.  Vangelis is also a big innovator in relation to his style of composing and recording, and he has also invented some electronic devices which he uses in the studio and live performance.  Anyway, as far as "solo" artists go, Vangelis, Jarre, and Oldfield are definitely the big three in my book.
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