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Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 02 2004, 22:39 I got pummeled on Amarok for even mentioning this but I will give it here just for fun. After several hundred listenings, it dawned on me that Tubular Bells I is a variation on a single theme: the old gospel tune "Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho" (and the walls come tumbling down). Mike even plays it straight with a sort of bump-and-grind rhythm in the middle of part I. I'm not a musicologist; I'm an engineer--but I know what I hear. (Not a cloth-eared nincompoop). ============================== It is worthwhile to note that this is not plagiarism; making variations on another composer's work was considered to be one of the highest forms of composing. Yet more: Platinum (Airborn) is a variation on Gershwin's "I've got Rhythm" which Mike has got on side 2 of Airborn. I don't particularly like his version of the original song but Platinum side 1 is one of my faves. And yet more: The caveman (Piltdown) melody is the same as "Moonshine" and both tip their hat to Joshua. I know (from experience) that many will deny these truths; however they have been revealed unto me and it is fine with me if only I and Mike actually know the truth!   Back to top

SentinelGard Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Sep. 03 2004, 02:24 WOW.... good ear for an engineer. ill have to have a listen to your examples ,, very interesting.... -------------- "Onwards & Upwards'" Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Sep. 03 2004, 08:15 Trying to figure this out. What part of TB1 (aside from the "direct quote" in Side 1, at the beginning of what is called "Sunjammer" in Tb2) do you think quotes "Joshua" as well? -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Jim Glass Unregistered Posted: Sep. 05 2004, 12:54 Quote (hiawatha @ Sep. 03 2004, 08:15) Trying to figure this out. What part of TB1 (aside from the "direct quote" in Side 1, at the beginning of what is called "Sunjammer" in Tb2) do you think quotes "Joshua" as well? I believe the entire side 1 of TB to be a variation on "Joshua". The variation is subtle but nevertheless there. And--with possibly a few exceptions--all of side one of Platinum/Airborn is a variation on "I've Got Rhythm." Variations can be quite subtle; list to a few of the classical ones, like "Variations on a theme by Hayden", by Brahms, or the Paganinni variations... Back to top

Wayfarer Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: June 2002 Posted: Sep. 05 2004, 16:11 Well... I've just downloaded a version of Joshua Fit The Battle Of Jericho by The Golden Gate Quartet. I've listened to it carefully. And I haven't been able to find any resemblance with any part of TB. So, could you be more specific and tell us exactly where is the resemblance between the two pieces? Note that I'm not saying that there's no resemblance. I'm just saying that I can't find it. Ok. Maybe I'm a cloth eared nincompoop... -- Wayfarer -------------- My homepage - www.thewayfarer.info My search - www.cannotbefound.com My community - www.taurusiv.net My luthier - www.artluthier.com Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Sep. 05 2004, 17:18 I don't have TB1 on CD right in front of me, so I can load it and tell you where, but the only place I have found "Joshua" is in the part just before the "Nasal Chorus" well into Side 1 (the hummers going Mmmm mmmm, mmmm mmm... etc). This "Joshua"-like bit is kind of hard-rocking. It does not repeat "Jericho, Jericho" like the actual hymn does. The actual hymn's lyrics: "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho Jericho Jericho Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down" The TB section that is like "Joshua", if the lyrics were applied to the music: "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down" --------------- Discussion of TB1 being a variation on "Joshua" is found buried in this page: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-chat/962604/posts -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 05 2004, 23:01 Quote (hiawatha @ Sep. 05 2004, 17:18) I don't have TB1 on CD right in front of me, so I can load it and tell you where, but the only place I have found "Joshua" is in the part just before the "Nasal Chorus" well into Side 1 (the hummers going Mmmm mmmm, mmmm mmm... etc). This "Joshua"-like bit is kind of hard-rocking. It does not repeat "Jericho, Jericho" like the actual hymn does. The actual hymn's lyrics: "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho Jericho Jericho Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down" The TB section that is like "Joshua", if the lyrics were applied to the music: "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down" --------------- Discussion of TB1 being a variation on "Joshua" is found buried in this page: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-chat/962604/posts Discussion of TB1 being a variation on "Joshua" is found buried in this page: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-chat/962604/posts That's because "Boris" is me. Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 05 2004, 23:09 Quote (hiawatha @ Sep. 05 2004, 17:18) I don't have TB1 on CD right in front of me, so I can load it and tell you where, but the only place I have found "Joshua" is in the part just before the "Nasal Chorus" well into Side 1 (the hummers going Mmmm mmmm, mmmm mmm... etc). This "Joshua"-like bit is kind of hard-rocking. It does not repeat "Jericho, Jericho" like the actual hymn does. The actual hymn's lyrics: "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho Jericho Jericho Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down" The TB section that is like "Joshua", if the lyrics were applied to the music: "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down Joshua fit the battle of Jericho And the walls come tumbling down" --------------- Discussion of TB1 being a variation on "Joshua" is found buried in this page: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-chat/962604/posts I don't have TB1 on CD right in front of me, so I can load it and tell you where, but the only place I have found "Joshua" is in the part just before the "Nasal Chorus" well into Side 1 (the hummers going Mmmm mmmm, mmmm mmm... etc). This "Joshua"-like bit is kind of hard-rocking. It does not repeat "Jericho, Jericho" like the actual hymn does. Sorry. I am still getting the hang of this forum format. ================================= I contend that the ENTIRE side 1 of TBI is a single complex set of variations of "Joshua"...without exception. Like a fugue. Recall that variations can be very subtle. Mike introduces changes in tempo, rhythm, key, melody...but "Joshua" is there all the way, from the first note that people associate with "The Exorcist" to the end of the "Finale" on side 1. If it took me several hundred listenings to see what he is up to (and he gives it straight, which is one of the rules of variation), then a teensy bit of cloth might keep you from recognizing it. Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Sep. 06 2004, 10:40 Yeah,  I may very well be a cloth-eared nincompoop. But help us out here, find another section that illustrates it better than others. Drop the lyrics onto it, that might help. I've likely listened to TB1 hundreds of times as well. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 06 2004, 13:33 Quote (hiawatha @ Sep. 06 2004, 10:40) Yeah,  I may very well be a cloth-eared nincompoop. But help us out here, find another section that illustrates it better than others. Drop the lyrics onto it, that might help. I've likely listened to TB1 hundreds of times as well. Well I don't know how to post snippets of MP3 here   but just listen to the intro with an open mind... "Joshua fit the batle OF Jerico...fit battle OF Jericho...da dat fit the battle OF Jerico..." Changes in rhythm, tempo, chord. He does not have to fit every single word in the original gospel tune, you know. It's THERE...IN THERE...if you will just open your mind and listen. JG Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 06 2004, 13:34 Quote (hiawatha @ Sep. 06 2004, 10:40) Yeah,  I may very well be a cloth-eared nincompoop. But help us out here, find another section that illustrates it better than others. Drop the lyrics onto it, that might help. I've likely listened to TB1 hundreds of times as well. Or else just read up on what is permissible in "variations". They need not be slavish.  Try the two classical pieces I mentioned. Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 06 2004, 17:13 On the BBC programme "Later with Jools Holand" Mike casually said the introduction was like an inversion of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor I think this is the most common analogy that fans accept, but I'm wiling to give "Joshua" a listen even if it is a good coincidence I also found the initial 'Basses' theme in 'Mrs Moon and the Thatched Shop' (on the Sallyangie bonus CD) played in a more dotted rhythm and in 6ths. So, if Mike had the hymn in his head for TB it would have evidently been from as early as the age of 15 Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 06 2004, 18:52 Quote (Jammer @ Sep. 06 2004, 17:13) On the BBC programme "Later with Jools Holand" Mike casually said the introduction was like an inversion of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor I think this is the most common analogy that fans accept, but I'm wiling to give "Joshua" a listen even if it is a good coincidence I also found the initial 'Basses' theme in 'Mrs Moon and the Thatched Shop' (on the Sallyangie bonus CD) played in a more dotted rhythm and in 6ths. So, if Mike had the hymn in his head for TB it would have evidently been from as early as the age of 15 I could almost buy that (but the inversion would be of the fugue, not the Tocatta). I wish I knew more music--I cannot read or play, just listen. Back to top

EeToN Group: Members Posts: 845 Joined: Sep. 2001 Posted: Sep. 07 2004, 18:25 Quote (Jammer @ Sep. 06 2004, 23:13) I also found the initial 'Basses' theme in 'Mrs Moon and the Thatched Shop' (on the Sallyangie bonus CD) played in a more dotted rhythm and in 6ths. So, if Mike had the hymn in his head for TB it would have evidently been from as early as the age of 15 I am not totally sure that Mrs Moon and the Thatched Shop is from 1968. It could be from early 70s (even though the original Children of the Sun is from 1968). Has someone sure information in this matter? -------------- If I were music, I would be Enigmatism. Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Sep. 07 2004, 19:01 Many many composers have "accidently" had themes they wrote described as copies of others works. We all listen to music, hear tunes etc. Many of these slip into our subconcious. And sometimes it's just a questions of "great minds thinking alike" (look at tim and fanny's websites for an example). So, yes, there may be a few consecutive notes that are very similar, but it does not mean they are necessarily copied. Some-one once said, "there are only 8 notes  -how many permutations is that?" -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

EeToN Group: Members Posts: 845 Joined: Sep. 2001 Posted: Sep. 08 2004, 07:58 Quote (olracUK @ Sep. 08 2004, 01:01) Many many composers have "accidently" had themes they wrote described as copies of others works... I totally agree with you. I also think that most of the similar cases are accidental. -------------- If I were music, I would be Enigmatism. Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Sep. 08 2004, 09:58 If TB1 is based on "Joshua Fit...", then what is TB2 based on? "Joshua" also, or some other song like "We Are Climbing Jacob's Ladder"? -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

ktran Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 08 2004, 23:40 I think there's really quite a simple explanation for it. "Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho" is an old folk song, and uses a very simplistic melody line. Jammer and I talked about this briefly, and it's really just the first five notes of the minor scale (there's also a note a semitone down from the root, if you sing it a certain way), ascending and descending. The first half of the opening motif for "Top of the Morning" is similar. What it boils down to is this: the repeating melody line for joshua is simply five or six notes, adjacent to one another. ANY short melody line in that particular mode, which is that simplistic, can be said to be related to it. It doesn't imply that a particular melody is derived from any other. Heck, you can even argue that the opening of Greensleeves is related. Play the two melodies on a piano to see what I mean. It's like "Michael Row the Boat Ashore" and "Amazing Grace" being variations on a theme, or any Blues song -- "Red House" was not derived from anything Stevie Ray Vaughn played, nor necessarily vice versa. In each set of examples, the songs fit into a structure, because of the style of music, or because of the archetypes they're built off of. I guess you can say that about MO's work here. In much of his lengthier instrumentals, and with TB especially, he's not so much of a classical "Statement of Theme and Variations" kind of guy, so much as he strings together a series of themes and motifs in a fashion that he feels he ought to (TBII and Incantations, though, fit the bill of theme and variations a little bit better). In this case, I think it's his background in folk music and its simple minor and pentatonic scale melody constructions that lend themselves to be musically similar to the simple joshua melody line, and _not_ that he's basing his entire instrumental around an old folk song consciously. [it's late, and I apologise for my lack of lucidity] rgds, -------------- Khoa Tran www.suspendedseconds.ca Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 09 2004, 08:23 Quote (olracUK @ Sep. 07 2004, 19:01) Many many composers have "accidently" had themes they wrote described as copies of others works. We all listen to music, hear tunes etc. Many of these slip into our subconcious. And sometimes it's just a questions of "great minds thinking alike" (look at tim and fanny's websites for an example). So, yes, there may be a few consecutive notes that are very similar, but it does not mean they are necessarily copied. Some-one once said, "there are only 8 notes  -how many permutations is that?" Don't forget that I also claim--with equal vehemence--that Platinum (part 1)/Airborn is a variation on "I've Got Rhythm" by Gershwin. Again, Mike gives you the "straight version" in a vocal. I had a musicology student become very upset when I made this claim on Amarok: "I've Got Rhythm is one of the two most important melodies in Western music and I can state categorically that this claim is false!" I forgot to ask her what the other important melody was; perhaps Bach's Toccata and Fugue. And again, listen to the "caveman/piltdown man" and then carefully listen to "Moonshine." You may need to do this more than once. BTW another Amarokian told me that "On Horseback" is based upon Pachelbel's Canon, which I disbelieved until I listened quite carefully and now I fully agree. As for musicians "stealing" from others; it is much more common to filch from themselves [consciously or not]. Handel couldn't help letting parts of the Water Music creep into the Royal Fireworks (or vice versa--I'm not sure which came first)...Tchaikovsky lets bits of the Nutcracker into some of his symphonic pieces (or again perhaps I have it backwards)...he has his style, his preferred phraseology and such cross-polination is probably inevitable. Jim Back to top

Jim Glass Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Sep. 09 2004, 08:29 Quote (hiawatha @ Sep. 08 2004, 09:58) If TB1 is based on "Joshua Fit...", then what is TB2 based on? "Joshua" also, or some other song like "We Are Climbing Jacob's Ladder"? I don't know. WHen I first heard TB II I did not like it. I thought, "ten year anniversary--we must put out something--let's invert the melody of TB I..." I did not listen to it for many years and then began listening to it and it is now one of my favorites. If it is a variation, I am unfamiliar with what it is a variation OF. Strangely, the only time I saw Mike in concert was Los Angeles for the TBII tour. After the concert someone asked me what I thought and I said, "Needs work." But I guess it just needed a studio and a good audio engineer. Jim Back to top

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