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ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 16:40 I just found this on YouTube and I’m still trying to get my head around it. The guy seems to have created a completely different version of the intro to TB by reversing its scale formula. It’s spooky! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXyBYe8jOXY Back to top

captainjjb Group: Members Posts: 310 Joined: Feb. 2006 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 17:10 very interesting indeed - what an interesting idea. Back to top

ex member 419 Group: Members Posts: 1177 Joined: April 2008 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 18:18 Hi Ommageddon, you might be interested to see TB3 at Horse Guards Parade, 1998. Mike played Man In The Rain. It sounds like Moonlight Shadow in reverse scale! Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 20:17 Quote (ommaGeddon @ Nov. 24 2009, 16:40) I just found this on YouTube and I’m still trying to get my head around it. The guy seems to have created a completely different version of the intro to TB by reversing its scale formula. It’s spooky! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXyBYe8jOXY Like we need another version of Tubular Bells . Unfortunately I have a dial-up connection so I can't watch the video. Still ahead of you in posts ommaGeddon   Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 25 2009, 03:22 Quote (ex member 419 @ Nov. 24 2009, 23:18) Hi Ommageddon, you might be interested to see TB3 at Horse Guards Parade, 1998. Mike played Man In The Rain. It sounds like Moonlight Shadow in reverse scale! I see what you mean. Maybe Mikey Boy's been up to this already...   Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 25 2009, 03:25 Quote (Syd B @ Nov. 25 2009, 01:17) Still ahead of you in posts ommaGeddon   Syd, I do believe I can see you in my rear view mirror. Be seeing ya!   Back to top

ex member 419 Group: Members Posts: 1177 Joined: April 2008 Posted: Nov. 25 2009, 06:03 Hi Ommageddon, I try to listen to Mike's music and find the layers in some. Hard to do. He is able to use complex melodies and harmonies and create original themes. Part time hobby when not at work. Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 27 2009, 03:42 I’ve really been getting into this... Just checked Man In The Rain and the melody is definitely not the mirror image of Moonlight Shadow, but it sounds as if the chords of the verse section might be. Mike could have mirrored the chords and then created his own melody. Or maybe he just came up with that chord progression anyway and it’s just a coincidence… I’m surprised that electronic composers aren’t using this more. Sometimes the alternative versions don’t sound so good but occasionally I’ll find something beautiful that I couldn’t have thought of ‘the right way round’. I also like the way that all of the intervals between the notes are just flipped the other way so that the entire logic and rhythm is left intact, and ‘normal’ and ‘mirror’ modulate. They seem make a complete musical system. Light and dark. Yin and yang. Or something like that…   Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Nov. 27 2009, 11:30 This is a simple tool that has been used for years on sequencers, transpose. Highlight the area of music to transpose, click up or down the number of whole/half steps and click go. Now this piece of music sounds like it has drastic "Theory" problems in it. Oh well, have fun. Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 27 2009, 12:54 Quote (Scatterplot @ Nov. 27 2009, 16:30) This is a simple tool that has been used for years on sequencers, transpose. Highlight the area of music to transpose, click up or down the number of whole/half steps and click go. Now this piece of music sounds like it has drastic "Theory" problems in it. Oh well, have fun. Jim Not quite – it’s more like an instant ‘reverse pitch’ about an axis point, but yeah, I can certainly do it on my sequencer easily enough and I’m sure the other sequencers have that feature too. I don’t think there are drastic ‘theory problems’ in the music example at all - I guess we all have different ears (I know some people have a problem with blues progressions and some of the Beatles' harmonies). It sounds a little bit ‘different’ because it’s modal: the Aeolian mode (nat minor) used for the TB intro has been flipped into Mixolydian, so it ends up with something based on the major scale with a flattened 7. That can easily be tweaked into a regular major scale, which should sound more conventionally melodic, or Lydian, which might sound a bit more dreamy. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Nov. 27 2009, 23:59 Nah.....Please no arguements....it has music theory problems regardless of myxa-dyxa-clixa-lodian scales. There are many clashing notes. Enjoy it and have fun. I just think it's an all-in-good-fun experiment some dude did with his software. But never mind me for being a purist. I was warned around 1987 NOT to take Music Theory class. That it would "alter" my own unique veiws on music in favor of what so many Doctors of Music say is right. Perhaps I was infected to a degree. IE, always resolve a sad minor work at the end with a major chord, etc. Life goes on. I always kept it simple. For example no Pentatonic scales. I tried that when I was learning to play guitar. I kept hitting the notes that "Were Not" in the pentatonic scale because I thought they sounded "right" with what I was playing. Hence I never use pentatonic scales. Sees yous, enjoy transposing 'n stuph, Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 29 2009, 16:38 Well, I’m a musician too and it sounds fine to me. Certainly not as good as Mike’s masterpiece but then again very few things are… I think Mike himself could possibly do something really cool with it. I ‘e-spoke’ to the guy who did it and he doesn’t see it as an all-in-good-fun experiment at all. He’s basically trying to say, “Hey, this is a really useful technique and it doesn’t cost anything so if you’ve got a software sequencer (and composer’s block) check it out – you might be surprised.” I think he’s got a point, although it’s clearly not for everyone… Okay, I know Scatterplot’s thoughts on the matter but what about everyone else? What do you think? Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 07:55 Don't foget that Mike (by his own admission)ripped of Bach with the TB intro by doing what?Reversing it! -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 09:43 Yeah, I heard that Mike did that some time ago but this version doesn't sound like any Bach tune I've ever heard... It's also a bit confusing because there are two or three different ways of reversing/inverting musical phrases (for example you can also play a passage backwards - from the last note to first, rather than first to last) and they often seem to get confused with each other. I'd like to know exactly what Mike did... Does anybody know which Bach passage MO 'reversed'? I wanna check it out...   Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 10:45 Can't help.To be honest i'm not sure it was a specific peice but rather taking the pedal tone idea (ie the hammering technique on the A) that he reversed.As ever he wasn't that forthcoming with it. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

smillsoid Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Dec. 2008 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 11:30 Wasn't it the Fugue part of Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor BWV 565"? -------------- http://www.reverbnation.com/simonjmills Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 11:45 Well done that man!I totally forgot that! -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 12:58 Aha, you’re right – found it! It’s similar to a Bach phrase played backwards - from end to beginning - but the notes still aren’t quite the same. MO hasn’t ripped off Bach at all – just used a tiny bit of his fugue as an inspiration to create a rather different idea. But anyway, this means that the ‘mirror’ version isn’t Bach - it’s something quite different. More like Tubular Bells through the looking glass! Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 13:04 Quote (ommaGeddon @ Nov. 29 2009, 16:38) I ‘e-spoke’ to the guy who did it and he doesn’t see it as an all-in-good-fun experiment at all. He’s basically trying to say, “Hey, this is a really useful technique and it doesn’t cost anything so if you’ve got a software sequencer (and composer’s block) check it out – you might be surprised.” I think he’s got a point, although it’s clearly not for everyone… That's similar to what Schönberg was proposing with the serialist theory, in which some of the ways you can "transform" a 12 note series is transposition, reversal and inversion (as was shown in the video). To me what the video did was sort of like taking the negative of a photograph and showing "hey, look what a COOL effect you can do if you're out of ideas". It's just a little trick. As for music theory, I'm sort of divided in it. Part of my says that the theorists exist for a good reason, there are great things to be learnt in the area, but at the same time, I HATE, HATE, HATE WITH A PASSION the idea that there are "right" things you must do in your music and the "wrong" things you should avoid. Come on! Seriously? For a long time parallel fifths were considered a crime. At one time people were KILLED for using the tritone in music!! The tritone is "satanic"? Look at what Bernstein did with it in Maria, from West Side Story; sounds like the Devil to you? I'm afraid of everything that blocks progress in music, and I admit I may be inaccurate in this matter, but I think music theory does that a bit. People should be free to experiment new things, and the spirit of experimentation gets GREATLY spoiled if you learn things in terms of "right" and "wrong". Myself, I always completely ignore the idea of the "pentatonic scale". I won't say I never work with it -- sometimes we do things in an unconscious level. But I notice that my music puts quite a bit of stress in the 4th and the major 7th. I have a particular fondness, in particular, for the 2nd and the 7th; it seems to add a bit of sweetness, I don't know. Is there any theory that explains that? I don't care, it's just the way I like to do it, though in no way I take it as a conscious rule. But I digress... -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Dec. 02 2009, 16:01 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Dec. 02 2009, 18:04) Quote (ommaGeddon @ Nov. 29 2009, 16:38) I ‘e-spoke’ to the guy who did it and he doesn’t see it as an all-in-good-fun experiment at all. He’s basically trying to say, “Hey, this is a really useful technique and it doesn’t cost anything so if you’ve got a software sequencer (and composer’s block) check it out – you might be surprised.” I think he’s got a point, although it’s clearly not for everyone… That's similar to what Schönberg was proposing with the serialist theory, in which some of the ways you can "transform" a 12 note series is transposition, reversal and inversion (as was shown in the video). To me what the video did was sort of like taking the negative of a photograph and showing "hey, look what a COOL effect you can do if you're out of ideas". It's just a little trick. I think it’s more than just a little trick. I’ve really been getting into it and have found that ‘normal’ and ‘mirrored’ parts usually modulate well with each other, so it’s great for producing alternative sections to a musical piece. The tonal colour of the new parts is completely different from the originals and yet the logic and rhythmic structures remain intact, giving continuity - you sometimes need to tweak a few notes, though, but that's all part of the creative process anyway... Doesn't work for jazz harmonies, though - ouch!   Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Dec. 02 2009, 18:04) I HATE, HATE, HATE WITH A PASSION the idea that there are "right" things you must do in your music and the "wrong" things you should avoid. Come on! Seriously? For a long time parallel fifths were considered a crime. At one time people were KILLED for using the tritone in music!! I couldn’t agree more! Reminds me of those guys who say you’re not playing a guitar properly if you’re using a plectrum/pick instead of your fingers, or you’re not playing the drums properly if you’re holding the sticks this way instead of that way. Back to top

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