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bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 19 2007, 19:56 I don't know why, but whenever I hear an extract from Tubular Bells that I'm not expecting, I get a strange feeling I can't describe very well. It's like an awareness, a subconscious understanding of something important, it almost feels like it's talking to me. It always freezes me in what I'm doing and I can't believe it doesn't effect people near me in the same way. I play the album and listen and love absolutely everything about it in it's entirity but whenever I hear bits, that are so familiar, it's as if there's a message. Now that does sound weird & I'm hoping I'm not sounding too eccentric, but I wondered if anyone else gets this. It happens with Ommadawn & Hergest Ridge too, but more with Tubular Bells mainly because you often do get small extracts, like on the UK television ad for the Mail on Sunday give away of the album or when I see some of the You Tube stuff on TB. I thought it might be to do with the fact that I have heard it for so long, throughout most of my life and it's just in my head, a part of me. But I think it's more, it is a very special piece of music, lightyears ahead of it's time. It doesn't scare me, it just seems natural and I am meant to hear/sense it this way. Anyone else feel the same? bee -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: May 19 2007, 22:01 I would love for that to happen to me, but it is a very rare thing for me to hear an excerpt of anything of Mikes. In fact, I can only remember one time hearing I think it was Wonderful Land or something on a bus, one that Mike had not written, and I asked the driver about it and he said it was on a compilation album and had no idea who Mike Oldfield was. There is a TV show called CSI (I think) that has theme music that sounds eerilly like Mike but the one 'me not playing Mike' fix I ever get is on You Tube. I do understand what you mean about feeling like it is a part of you tho. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 20 2007, 05:25 Quote (bee @ May 20 2007, 00:56) I don't know why, but whenever I hear an extract from Tubular Bells that I'm not expecting, I get a strange feeling I can't describe very well. It's like an awareness, a subconscious understanding of something important, it almost feels like it's talking to me. These feelings are often very difficult to describe, and although I think I know what you're trying to explain, Bee, I may not quite be catching the exact flavour of it. So there's a possibility that you'll shake your head at what follows, and say no, no, that isn't really what I meant. The first thing I'd say is that I think Mike himself wouldn't be in the least surprised by what you describe. Look at these snippets from an early passage from Changeling: I couldn't have explained what it was to anyone at the time, or how it felt to me, but even when I was small I had what you could call 'atmosphere antennae'. ... It was, and is, like tapping into another world. I've always had the feeling that there's some 'big thing', somewhere out there but not quite reachable. ... I think all these feelings inspired me, much later. I wanted to use music to explain how I felt, but also to reach out, to get closer to the unknown. So those 'important messages' really are there in the music, waiting for us to pick them up and respond to them. And when we catch a short passage of the music unexpectedly, it often catches us unawares, when our mental barriers are down. In the circumstances you've described, you're not putting on the album deliberately - you're probably thinking of something else entirely - and the snatch of music slips under your guard. It bypasses your conscious, rational side (the left-brain response) and gets straight at the intuitive, right-brain part of you. I think that sensation of something important, on the edge of understanding, but 'out there', is a characteristic of intuitive, right-brain response. I think you might find that if you immediately played that bit of the album afterwards, having just had one of those fleeting experiences, the feeling of 'something important' may well have disappeared. You'd be listening in a different, deliberate, left-brain kind of way that would block it out. My second point is that in my experience these fleeting (but profoundly important) sensations are by no means limited to suddenly hearing snatches of Mike Oldfield. I find they can happen when I suddenly hear a snatch of Elgar or Wagner (in music); or catch a sudden glimpse of trees and clouds in a reproduction of a painting by (for example) Constable that I know well; or even (more rarely perhaps) something so slight as the unexpected movement of a tree in a light breeze when I'm on a familiar favourite walk. Of course the flavour is different in each case, but that sense of an important message, just beyond the grasp of understanding, is a characteristic of them all. Finally, I'd go even further and say that experiences of this kind have been an important driving force in my life for as long as I can remember. So I'm the very last person who would think you weird or eccentric. Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 21 2007, 09:20 The left/right side of the brain explanation does seem to make sense, I agree, and it is those fleeting moments as you say Alan, that I can't describe but feel incredibly strongly that fascinate me. Music can then be understood rationally ( the mathematics idea that Mike has spoken of in relation to his new work sounds interesting) and with a mysticism ~ and these ways of listening give so much to the listener and make music so enduring. Thinking on from what you said, other instances of this right brain activity, many times I have found myself staring into the flames of a fire without any concept of time, and this probably happens to many people. There's something a bit primeval about fire, making us engage with our ancestors maybe. Water too, that's why people feel peaceful and calm near water I guess. All those years ago, the instinct side of us was possibly stronger and our reactions to our environment were more immediate. So what made us develop this logical side more so that it became the stronger side, why did we have to change? Is it all to do with the idea of evolution? -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 21 2007, 11:07 I recall a couple of occasions when I was young of an incredible sense of clarity about the world - as though you spend all of your life without realising you are in deep mist and then suddenly it clears. Unfortunately they were fleeting, as though the mist quickly closed again. I haven't related this to Mikes music in the way you describe however but I think it might be the same sort of feelings that you are describing. One song/lyric that always reminds me of those feelings is "Comortably Numb" by Pink Floyd: "When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse, out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look and it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now, the child has grown the dream has gone". Once in a while I wonder if I will ever have that sense of clarity about the world ever again. I imagine this sort of thing is why some people want to try LSD... I also agree with the comment about fire. There is something very special and deeply rooted about watching glowing embers. Nature rather than nurture definitely. My copy of Changeling is beside me in a bag after a lunchtime purchase, tonights light reading :-) -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 21 2007, 11:35 Quote (bee @ May 21 2007, 14:20) So what made us develop this logical side more so that it became the stronger side, why did we have to change? Is it all to do with the idea of evolution? That's a huge question, and I don't have any very convincing answers. I think it probably is to do with evolution in a sense - not in biological terms, but in mental terms, related to conditioning. The left brain is responsible for dealing with things like language and logical reasoning, and as society has become more complicated, so language has developed in a particular way, and that involves more and more left-brain activity. So it's not so much that the right brain has atrophied, but rather that we've 'forgotten' how to use it to its full extent. I've often felt that the finest, richest human experiences are when left and right brain operate together. So for example, if you can achieve a state where you're listening to Tubular Bells following its musical structure (left brain) while at the same time being fully open to it on an intuitive level (right brain), that's when the music will completely blow you away into another level of existence. But it's very, very hard, to maintain that balance. Usually I find I slip into one or the other - so I either abandon the close listening and just 'feel' the music (right brain), or try closely to follow the structure (left brain) and then lose the emotional impact. One writer who has written a lot about this is Colin Wilson. I disagree with a lot of what he says, but he does have a very convincing fundamental thread running through all his books, which is the idea that human beings are not making full use of their consciousness. We let our internal 'robot' do most of our living for us (think how many times you drive home and arrive with no memory of the journey because the robot was driving). The robot is very useful, but Wilson's point is that if we're not careful the robot will listen to our music and look at our art for us, too! He thinks the great existential mystery is yet to be solved, and that ultimately it will happen through the development of enhanced degrees of consciousness that at present we only get little glimmers of (like the ones you discussed in your first post). Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 21 2007, 11:52 Quote (Matt @ May 21 2007, 16:07) I imagine this sort of thing is why some people want to try LSD... The difficulty with drug-induced states of consciousness is the lack of control. I've never taken LSD, but I had one drug-induced experience that was so completely terrifying that I wouldn't dare to touch anything like LSD. It happened many years ago, at the dentist, while under a general anaesthetic. The experience was so vivid, and so real, that even now I remember it as a 'real' memory, not in any sense as a dream or hallucination. In this state, I was presented with a door. No one spoke, but I somehow understood that behind that door lay the Meaning of Everything. I opened it. Behind it was .... nothing. I don't just mean empty space. There wasn't even any space. The nothingness was so total, so devastatingly unanswerable, that I can still feel its complete absence as I recall it, now. Apparently I came out of the anaesthetic screaming and sobbing helplessly (I don't remember this part - I just remember the door opening). My wife was terrified! I suffered terrible depression for days - even weeks to a lesser extent -  while trying to come to terms with what I'd 'seen'. Now this, it seems to me, illuminates the problem with using drugs as a short-cut to achieving elevated modes of consciousness. The drug calls the shots, not me. That's a dangerous route to follow. Far better, in my view, is to tread the same kind of path as William Blake, who achieved these states through contemplating and creating  his art, and his poetry, and his myths, and essentially using his own will power. Oddly enough, Mike Oldfield mentions Blake in Changeling and wonders what he was taking. The answer is that Blake (unlike Coleridge, say) was taking nothing. He was high on art, poetry, myth, spiritual experience, and life. Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 21 2007, 12:17 Alan D I think you missed my point. I said I imagine that is why *some people* might *want to try* something like LSD, because  of the alleged potential for easy access to deeper thoughts. I would not take it myself or advocate any others to try. -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 21 2007, 12:41 Alan, I have just read your last post and I am absolutely spooked by this, because as you were typing that account of your experience at the dentist, I was writing by hand ( I prefer to put pen to paper first before I touch the keyboard) these words. It's odd, it's one of those weird coincidence things and to be honest I don't know what it all means ....this is it, I'm sure I've said this before on tubular.net somewhere, but I keep feeling that something connects us all. We are all very different, obviously from many countries, having different backgrounds, philosophies, patterns of life etc, but there's something holding it all together. We all love the music of MO for sure - maybe to varying degrees but we all hear something special in the music & want to talk about it. It's as if the music is taking us, like a vehicle, on a journey & then leaving us to work something out. We step away from it almost having reached the answer, but we know we are not there yet - it might be that we will never find 'it' (whatever it is) but sometimes I feel so close, as if just one leap, one special effort would get me there. That could be why I keep listening. And why music makes people feel so strongly about it. And this is the spooky bit... I once had a very unsettling dream. It was quite a few years ago now, but I recall the feeling it left me with so clearly - in my dream I had been staying in this very old house with many rooms. It was a house I felt comfortable in & I was exploring. There were lots of flights of stairs, leaded windows, heavy, dusty curtains, wood paneling and it was quite dimly lit. I was with someone but I did not know them. And I can remember wanting to open doors & look into each room - which I did, but when I came to a hidden passageway that had a narrow staircase leading to a tiny doorway at the top, I felt as if should I ever open that door and see what lay behind, I would never be the same again. There would be a change in me forever. Oddly, 'something' ( not a person) held me back- almost like a guardian, because I really,really did want to know what was in that room. Isn't that weird? I wonder if that dream illustrates my left/right brain in action? Was my logic side having a good look in my more scatty/random side? It's so amazing that your experience at the dentist was so similar to my dream and that we both thought of them at the same time. Your experience must have been terrifying. And my dream is remembered more as if it did happen than just as a dream, as you say. Re-reading my dream, makes me laugh, it does sound funny, but I have never forgotten it, it stays with me, & it was disturbing at the time. When I visit old houses I do get a strong sense of something -not people or events or anything physical. Maybe I'd just had too much cheese for supper!! So is all this, what we are talking aboutn here, existentialism? Perhaps meditation is the answer. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 21 2007, 14:30 Quote (Matt @ May 21 2007, 17:17) Alan D I think you missed my point. I said I imagine that is why *some people* might *want to try* something like LSD, because  of the alleged potential for easy access to deeper thoughts. I would not take it myself or advocate any others to try. No, no, I didn't miss your point at all, Matt. I know you weren't advocating it. But I had been reading earlier today about Mike Oldfield's experiments with LSD and its eventual devastating effect on him, so all these things were floating around together in my mind, and this seemed a good place to talk about them, just because you raised that interesting and pertinent point. Rest easy Matt, please. I was just talking around the subject - not implying anything about you. The truth is that many artists have used drugs of one kind or another, and I think it's probably something better talked about, than not. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 21 2007, 14:31 Quote (bee @ May 21 2007, 17:41) And this is the spooky bit... Yep. Distinctly spooky! I'll have more to say but am in a rush just now - more anon. Back to top

Harmono Group: Members Posts: 759 Joined: May 2005 Posted: May 21 2007, 20:05 I've often had these 'strange feelings', just not sure if they are similar to what you guys described , but they certainly could be. Suddenly hearing Mike's music somewhere unexpected often gives me a strange feeling and it is all over in a blink of an eye. It's like the feeling I get when seasons change. The first snow every winter or the first smell of flowers in spring time, I only get that feeling once a year. As a child I had similar feelings more often. I hope they won't go away completely. LSD was mentioned. Some people I know have succesfully made these feelings last longer by using acid, unfortunately some of them have had nothing but strange feelings after those experiences. Keeping this in mind I think (if the drug induced state is similar) it is good that this wonderful feeling we  sometimes get naturally does'nt last forever, but I do think it should last a little longer than about a second. Back to top

bevy Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 21 2007, 22:55 ok LSD. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgvH3D56r4 (someone mentioned this song above so) the one thing it will do is give you panic attacks and make you paranoid while u are on it. it will last for about 12 hours / thats half a bit of paper.and after about 6 hours you wish it would end. you want it to end. It will not. 'you are on a trip' its not the big hippy trip you think it is. it will not open your mind it will scramble your mind. 'self awareness'? yes you are more aware of the people around you more than ever. be warned.. its a a rancid drug..only for the head strong not proud..just done it so anyone thinking of doing it DONT.. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 22 2007, 12:03 Quote (bee @ May 21 2007, 17:41) It's so amazing that your experience at the dentist was so similar to my dream and that we both thought of them at the same time. Your experience must have been terrifying. And my dream is remembered more as if it did happen than just as a dream, as you say. It's certainly curious that we were both thinking about similar things at the same time, Bee. It's hard to know what to make of these synchronicities, when they occur. Jung would say they were important; and they certainly feel significant. It's possible of course to dismiss them along the lines of 'given billions of people all doing billions of things all the time, some apparently curious coincidences will always be happening by chance'. But that objective approach doesn't really address the subjective sense of importance that we experience when they happen (which, if you think about it, is very similar in character to those fleeting glimpses of 'meaning' that you started off talking about in this thread); and I don't really see why we should let mere statistics have the last word. To talk about the business of the door and the opening of it (or not), for a moment: doors and windows have a symbolic significance  because they put us in 'liminal' situations - that is, they make us conscious of a boundary between this space, here, and that (markedly different) space there. Other 'liminal' situations are for example, on a sea shore (where we become particularly conscious of the boundary between water and land) or on a hilltop (boundary between land and sky). I think that's strongly related to the fact that we tend to experience 'significance' or 'meaning' in such places. The idea of a door is particularly interesting because (unlike standing on a seashore) we can change the sense of liminality by choosing to open it. For both of our 'dreams', it was the opening (or in your case, not opening) of the door that was important, I think. Quote So is all this, what we are talking about here, existentialism? Gosh, there's a big question. There seem to be so many versions of existentialism that I've never been able to unravel it properly, but certainly Colin Wilson claims to be an existentialist. Basically, I think the idea is that here we are, existing in the universe, and the 'meaning' of our existence can be determined only by us, ourselves, as individuals. So - if you experience an unidentifiable sense of 'meaning' when you hear snatches of Tubular Bells unexpectedly, you can choose either to dismiss it as a psychological blip of no importance (as many do); or you can choose to invest it with significance (as you would, and as I would, and as Colin Wilson would, and as Mike Oldfield would). That's an existential choice. I mean, I could put up a fair rational argument for accepting these moments of meaning at face value - but at the end of the discussion, it's still just an existential choice whether you do or not. [I wish María would read this discussion and join in - she knows a lot more about philosophy than I do.] Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: May 23 2007, 19:27 This is an interesting topic I don't quite know where to start, there's so many points raised I'd like to pick up on. Quote Matt   Posted on May 21 2007, 15:07 One song/lyric that always reminds me of those feelings is "Comortably Numb" by Pink Floyd: "When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse, out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look and it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now, the child has grown the dream has gone". Once in a while I wonder if I will ever have that sense of clarity about the world ever again. I imagine this sort of thing is why some people want to try LSD... Quote Alan D   Posted on May 21 2007, 15:52 Quote (Matt @ May 21 2007, 16:07) I imagine this sort of thing is why some people want to try LSD... The difficulty with drug-induced states of consciousness is the lack of control. I've never taken LSD, but I had one drug-induced experience that was so completely terrifying that I wouldn't dare to touch anything like LSD. It happened many years ago, at the dentist, while under a general anaesthetic. The experience was so vivid, and so real, that even now I remember it as a 'real' memory, not in any sense as a dream or hallucination. In this state, I was presented with a door Alan D To talk about the business of the door and the opening of it (or not), for a moment: doors and windows have a symbolic significance Yep I somtimes get strange feelings, maybe those lyrics to Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb do sum things up for me.  I guess maybe I've had some strange things happen. I know Matt had mentioned the use of LSD in a post on here,         yep I really don't know if drugs enhance clarity or confuse it. Going back about 12 years I had the house to myself and ended up dropping a whole LSD tab, yep things were fine at first, had a warm "glow" and pleasant feeling, but when I felt like i wanted to come down /to sleep I found myself in troughs, thinking I was coming down , but then I'd be on myway to another high. I think the whole experience lasted 14 hours.  The hours where I wanted  to come down but couldn't I found very scary and lonely, So personally I would advise against trying LSD for that reason.   Alan has talked about having a dream or hallucination whilst at the dentists, and in his hallucination was a door, wasn't Aldous  Huxleys "The Doors of Perception" induced by an LSD trip. I guess these srtates can be produced by many a drug both legally given or through recreational use.  I know when I had some major dentistry done just over 2 years ago I had eaten some cannabis chocolate and smoked 2 joints on my way there just to calm my nerves. I had also taken Incantations on a CD  Walkman to listen to. Things could have gone so horribly wrong , but what happened was quite the reverse. I did have one operation once I don't remember what happened before, but upon coming round I found myself staring at some strip lights in a strange room. I felt as if "Greys" (aliens) were about to come and experiment upon me, if you've seen the film "Fire In The Sky" about the Travis Walton abduction you'll know what I mean. I mearly shouted out "Help!!!! I've been abducted by aliens" then remembered where I was. I don't quite know what significance my above post has, apart to highlight my experience with LSD. I have sometimes heard snatches of Tubular Bells when I don't expect it, my usual reaction is one of WOW!!! to say that I wasn't expecting that.   What I would say is I believe the mind to be a very complex piece of machinery, even with all the work that has been done into the human mind I think there's so much that isn't understood. As an example I do get rather angry when I hear people describing a depressed person as "Lazy"  (demotivated is more accurate, you want to do something , but you can't as opposed to won't)  telling them to "Snap out of it", both of these type of comments were directed at me, by my then husband  . I guess it's difficult to explain to someone unless they've been there themselves. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 23 2007, 21:19 The brain is a wondrous thing, and I believe it's one of those cases in which, with every discovery you make, you unveil dozens of new mysteries. And that's good, because the mysteries just keeps coming to keep the scientists busy. I mean, imagine suddenly mapping the whole human brain. Of course it's impossible to imagine what kind of problems that would solve, but... That would mean being able to predict everyone's reactions to everything. It's quite crazy. Everyone has areas of his brain that work in funny ways. No matter how much our reasoning improves, we still have the basic instinct, the fear for the unknown. I find that I have those "feelings" late at night, when I'm feeling vulnerable and alone - it makes me feel like nothing, compared to the infinity that the universe represents. Makes me feel kind of pointless. But I think the feelings change - sometimes, it makes me feel like I'm everything. And now comes the cool part: Roger Waters wrote a song exactly about that. His solo LP called The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking narrates a man's dream sequence, and when he wakes up, he suddenly feels like he can see himself everywhere, that he's truly one with the world - in his own words, "I recognise myself in every stranger's eyes". And then, "the moment of clarity faded like charity does". Ain't that awesome? I don't think there's anything mystical or esoteric about all that. It's just our brains at work, and it's perfectly plausible that those things can be triggered by music. I dunno, in Bee's case, Tubular Bells may be deeply connected with very important memories and things, and hearing it "off-guard" triggers those obscure parts of the brain. I never experienced that, but it might be something like that. I believe it's because of personal identification and association than for some "bigger meaning" being there. Yes, I'm a sceptic bastard. But it's just me. It's all very interesting, anyways. And Roger Waters rocks. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 24 2007, 04:06 Quote (moonchildhippy @ May 24 2007, 00:27) wasn't Aldous  Huxleys "The Doors of Perception" induced by an LSD trip. Interestingly, the phrase 'doors of perception' has its origins not with Huxley but with William Blake, who wrote: "If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear as it is, infinite". Blake thought he could identify four natural levels of perception, each successive level higher than (and including) the lower ones, and culminating in a kind of mystical ecstasy: 'fourfold vision', he called it. I've always found his basic idea a very useful way of thinking about our perceptions, even though one might quibble about the details. The most important aspect of his scheme is that for him, these are levels of real perception: not just feelings, but potentially genuine insights into reality; and the difficult thing is to 'cleanse' the perceptions so that you can see clearly through the doors. He would have argued, I think, that great art can assist in this process - and that brings us back to Bee's flashes of Tubular Bells in her first thread. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 24 2007, 04:51 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 24 2007, 02:19) I don't think there's anything mystical or esoteric about all that. It's just our brains at work, and it's perfectly plausible that those things can be triggered by music. This brings us to the two fundamental but contrary philosophical visions of reality that go all the way back to Plato and Aristotle (and maybe beyond, as far as I know), and really it comes down to that existential choice that I mentioned in an earlier post. What follows is an extremely crude and possibly misleading summary, and I wish we had a real philosopher contributing to correct my mistakes, but even if I'm gravely misrepresenting Plato and Aristotle, still the basic division into two world views is what really counts for our present discussion, and the labels are useful. I think it goes like this: 1. If you're an 'Aristotelian', then the universe that you see out there is reality, and the things you find in it are basically your material for study. So, if you want to understand human behaviour, then a study of the human brain is potentially capable of providing the answers. Sir M, broadly speaking, is an Aristotelian. 2. If you're a 'Platonist', then the things you see out there in the universe are incomplete images of a deeper reality, like shadows cast on the wall of a cave. No matter how carefully you study these shadows, you'll never properly understand the nature of reality because you aren't seeing the whole of it. In this (limited) sense I'm a Platonist. So, I think, is Bee. So far as I know, there's no way to establish one or the other by rational argument. They each represent a self-consistent world view, and so it comes down to that existential choice for each of us. Those 'messages' that Bee is talking about can only be meaningful if you think there's something 'behind' everyday reality for them to be meaningful about. For the Platonist, there is. For the Aristotelian, the messages are not 'about' anything outside the brain: they just exist as a part of brain activity. Put even more crudely, it all depends on whether you think there's anything real to see when you open the 'doors of perception'. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 24 2007, 19:38 That's a very relevant comment. I have no idea whether it's 100% accurate, but it still really helps to make things not a matter of "wrong" and "right". Personally, I guess I'm more towards the Aristotle approach, though not too much into it. Because if I were to get really down into the matter, I'd say that we are all observers, and nothing guarantees us that we are seeing the whole reality, much less that we will ever see it. The most we can do is approximate our observations to the actual reality, assuming it exists. And I guess that's how all the differences come. As I said, I always try to have a sceptical attitude - which does not mean "not believing in what everyone says". I only offered my own view on what I find a very interesting topic. I hope everyone's fine with that. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 24 2007, 20:23 Wish I'd opened that door in my dream This is all getting very deep. The experiences spoken of at first seem a long way away, but relevant. The feelings with the change in the seasons, Harmono spoke of, I can really relate to that - like a sudden awareness of an essence of time - I get that alot, but also it can happen when just a few words are spoken or a brief moment in a situation where this clarity forms & I feel taken out of the now. It's like being shown, or finding, a single jigsaw piece that's part of a big puzzle to complete. The sensations the music brings are a little different, but probably connected somewhere along the line. I do see what you're saying Sir M about the music, it could well all be to do with my memory & associations, & maybe I am just hoping it's something special but I do feel there's more. There are other instances. I wonder now if it's more about what is 'real'. Seeing things as they really are. Objects are real and physical things, a blue ball for example, we see and feel it is round and notice the colour too. The colour is real also, chemically but there's also this sense of blueness, what blue is, on it's own. Blue has meaning. When you put two colours together they have a special relationship that does something - I'm thinking now of looking at a summer blue sky with sunlight shining through the deep red leaves of an acer or beech tree - something happens to those colours, they are more, they sort of ring. We even talk about real & true colours. Another abstarct thing could be temperature- it can be scientifically measured but we all know, or learn, what heat & coldness mean- we can visualise it, feel it and sense that it has it's own state, it's own intrinsic nature. Things we sense have another aspect that is not easy to describe. Going back to the LSD part, I have never taken anything because I've always believed my imagination is too active anyway & I fear I would lose control & never get back! ( it would seem I have a very sensible side afterall!! so I can't speak about this from experience, but from what i have heard the drugs are the key to this door inside all of us, should we choose to try. There we may see what is really real. Mike spoke of his frightening experience in Changeling..."I felt as if a veil was lifted off...The people around me, they weren't people I knew anymore, everyone was stripped of everything I had ever learned about them. They looked just like biological machines, almost like robots, but made of flesh and blood." Could it be that the drugs stripped away the 'reality' leaving only the physical matter? I have heard of these Philosopher's schools of thought, Alan, but have never looked too closely before. It is bending my mind just trying to get a hold of what they believed and I can't yet decide where I sit on this. Or which hemisphere of my brain is in operation! In life, I desire for there to be more than just what I can see is physically there, but does that then make it still real? -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

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