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ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 16 2010, 13:34 At one point I despised black metal, death metal and indeed any genre that featured screaming or growling of any kind. Then I discovered Mastodon and Opeth and I gradually started to appreciate more and more extreme music. Then, one day, I listened to Burzum for the first time. The music gave me a feeling that I've never experienced before - it had this epic yet grim beauty about it that I'd never heard. Since, I've discovered Emperor, Bathory and all the other classic black metal bands, and also more modern bands like Agalloch, Les Discrets and Alcest. I'm hooked. Any one else have any stories or opinions to share about black metal (or metal in general)? Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Nov. 16 2010, 14:22 Both Burzum and Bathory are one-man projects run by men with great artistic vision and very limited musicianship. Mystique is the keywoard. Like it for the same reason I like early Mike Oldfield. Growing up in the late 80s I was surrounded by friends who were into heavy-/thrash-/speed-/death-/black/whatever-metal and I liked some of it. Some of it holds up today, some of it was unbelievably bad. But considering the state of music in general in 1987, any kind of change was for the better. Don't know if I've told this story before, but I was in a band called Dawn and some time around 1996-97 we were offered to go on tour with Opeth. I turned that down for some stupid reason (I think I considered my university studies as being more important). And I haven't heard them since their first album (the one with a flower or something on the sleeve). Can't bring myself to listen to them even though they're propably good (everybody says so!.   -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 17 2010, 10:35 Quote (larstangmark @ Nov. 16 2010, 14:22) Both Burzum and Bathory are one-man projects run by men with great artistic vision and very limited musicianship. Whereas the guys in Emperor were more sophisticated technically. Quote Don't know if I've told this story before, but I was in a band called Dawn and some time around 1996-97 we were offered to go on tour with Opeth. I turned that down for some stupid reason (I think I considered my university studies as being more important). And I haven't heard them since their first album (the one with a flower or something on the sleeve). Can't bring myself to listen to them even though they're propably good (everybody says so!.   Ouch. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 17 2010, 17:29 I do like metal, I don't like black/death/doom metal because it hasn't got melodies. I don't like music that is not based on melodies. That's why I don't like jazz. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 18 2010, 13:05 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 17 2010, 17:29) I do like metal, I don't like black/death/doom metal because it hasn't got melodies. I don't like music that is not based on melodies. That's why I don't like jazz. A lot of black metal doesn't have much melody, but you've obviously never heard Bathory. In fact you might actually like Bathory since you like Maiden. Not so much their early stuff, but check out Hammerheart. It has lots of pretty keyboards and melodies. Very epic - not unlike Maiden, actually. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 18 2010, 14:22 @ Syd: thanks for the tip. Have you got a link where I may listen to some stuff from that album? Wikipedia says it's not black metal, but rather "Viking metal". I'm not sure of what "Viking metal" actually means. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 18 2010, 14:36 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 18 2010, 14:22) @ Syd: thanks for the tip. Have you got a link where I may listen to some stuff from that album? Wikipedia says it's not black metal, but rather "Viking metal". I'm not sure of what "Viking metal" actually means. Here's Bathory's Myspace Page. I recommend the song "One Rode to Asa Bay" (it's the only one on the page from Hammerheart). Bathory pioneered black metal, and then started to push a style called Viking metal, which is basically black metal with folk and power metal influences (and lyrics about Norse mythology mainly). Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 19 2010, 10:25 @ Syd B.: I've listened to the whole of Bathory's "One Road...". The guy doesn't sound like he has a perfect knowledge of the English language and grammar , but the song is great - a bit too "loaded" maybe? I do understand what Lars means by "very limited musicianship", but it's great all the same.  Does the rest of the Hammerheart album sound the same? As for the other songs on the page, well, "Blood Fire Death" is also quite good, but "In Conspiracy with Satan" to me it's not... it sounds like bad rap on a bad thrash metal backing track. It sounds like Kid Rock on acid. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Nov. 19 2010, 11:52 Short guide to Bathory albums: Bathory (1984) - primitive fast black metal (almost punk-ish) The Return... (1985) - more of same only faster. amateurish musicianship but fantastic "evil" atmosphere! Under the Sign of the Black Mark (1986) - slighlty more controlled and melodic. keyboards of some tracks. Still some ultra-fast songs. Blood Fire Death (1988) - not a huge step from the previous album but lyrics move from the satanic themes to norse gods, viking themes etc. The title track is outstanding. Hammerheart (1989) - no fast songs, slow melodic metal songs. Very pompous. Singer sings instead of screams which doesn't work at all IMO. Twilight of the Gods (1990) - basically the same as previous albums except for more classical pretentions (it would be too kind to say "influences"). Requiem and Octagon (1994, 1995) are under-produced thrash metal albums with drum machine. Awful! Blood on Ice (1996) was an abandoned project from the 80s which sounds like Hammerheart except slightly better. I haven't heard the later albums but apparently he went back to the slow viking-thing. Quorthon managed to make some really insane legendary black metal albums and created a mystery around his project. That I think was his talent. I don't care much for his compositions or his singing. When it became apparent to Quorthon that he was "legendary" (in the late 80s) he lost perspective on his own abilities IMO. Also, he was signed to his dad's record label!   -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 19 2010, 12:35 @ Ugo: Yeah, the rest of Hammerheart pretty much sounds like that, a little more growly on some of the songs. @ Lars: Completely disagree with you about Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods. To me his "poor" albums are the ones you mentioned as being his best! Oh well, it's the same with Pink Floyd, if you remember. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Nov. 19 2010, 13:37 "Hammerheart" sure was a 180 degree turn. I remember hearing it upon its release and thinking WTF? Tastes differ of course, that's just the way things are. But do you really like Octagon? Lars T -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 19 2010, 14:33 No, Octagon sucks. And I haven't listened to his early stuff enough to truly make a judgement. Back to top

Drealm Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 21 2010, 10:33 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 17 2010, 17:29) I do like metal, I don't like black/death/doom metal because it hasn't got melodies. I don't like music that is not based on melodies. That's why I don't like jazz. You just gave me the reason I was searching for all these years about this question "why I don't like jazz". Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Nov. 21 2010, 11:34 Disliking certain kinds of music for lack of melody is sort of disliking prose for lack of rhyme. And yeah, I used to be the proponent of "melody over anything else" a couple of years ago, but there are many kinds of music in which melody is as essential as rhythm is in ambient music. That is the rich, infinite variety of music, and in blocking off part of it (whether consciously or not), the only one who loses anything is the listener himself. Music remains evolving. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Drealm Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 21 2010, 12:19 The first music I was introduced to in my early teenage years was metal because I have a cousin who is older than me and I took him for my musical model; he was almost only in metal music so... The very first album I ever bought was Slayer - Reign in blood on cassette at the time. After that I got into metal a lot, listening to Gorefest, Deicide, Necrophobic, Cannibal Corpse, Death (band), Cradle of Filth, Massacre, Sinister, Sepultura, and of course Metallica among others. But later my musical world greatly evolved. Metal became less present and a lot of other kinds of music came into my life. I remember Mike is one of the first who came after my initial metal trip. I can credit Mike as my musical father who taught me that music can be really great, and also that more commercial music can be good too. I was so anti-commercial at the time, for example I had hard times with Crises (side two) and Earth Moving on my first times. But Mike succeeded to make that shift in my mind; I liked so much his instrumentals that I could not believe that his more commercial side was bad. The result was me liking Earth Moving more than I could ever think of. Still, metal is part of my musical journey and today there are  old albums and new bands I listen to: Classics albums I still enjoy: Gorefest - False Necrophobic - The Nocturnal Silence Cradle of Filth - Midian Sinister - Cross the Styx Deicide - Deicide --> THE one I listened the most to. Sepultura - Chaos AD Cannibal Corpse - The Bleeding Suffocation - Breeding the Spawn Metallica - All Albums I possess Ministry - For years, my second favorite artist after Mike. I have all albums and will always enjoy it. But I discovered new bands that became my top today: Wintersun Therion Novembers Doom Knight Area Rammstein Fear Factory Mr Bungle (only the first album is metal; after it became highly experimental; only for the best. See my post "the little brother of Amarok) PLEASE READ: I you're searching for the ultimate melodic metal album, I've found it: Wintersun - Wintersun With the years passing, I wanted more melodies in metal music and realized that metal albums highly talented and musical in nature are a very scarce resource. When I stumbled upon Wintersun, my dreams came to fruition. So if you're curious, you HAVE TO give at least one listen to this album. You have no reason not to; with all the crap we stumble upon while searching for good music, you can't underestimate this suggestion and don't give a try. And if anyone have a similar suggestion to do about good melodic metal, I'm open. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 21 2010, 17:07 @ Sir M.: in most stuff by Aphex Twin (or whatever his other aliases are ), there is not a strong emphasis on melody - melodies are generally very 'unimportant' in his work. [OK, he did stuff like "Avril 14th", which is all melody, but I'm talking about his work in general.] Yet I love most of his stuff, because all the things that happen within his pieces (his "snare rushes", his weird noises, his buzzing 20-years-old synth sounds) have a strange mesmeric, hypnotizing quality, at least to me, which manages to hook me on it much more than a beautiful melody could do. What I don't like in music is the complete absence of melody. In black/death metal this is quite common, and also in jazz - which indeed, as far as I know, has one of its key points in the very absence of a recognizable melody, as the melody itself is transformed and deformed (or should I say transmogrified?) through endless improvised passages, which I never liked. @ Drealm: apart from Metallica, I don't like any of the bands you mentioned, although I know all of them. However, you may convince me to check out Wintersun just like Syd convinced me to seek out a copy of Hammerheart by Bathory. Is there anywhere I may listen to Wintersun's music? Some time ago I used to like a band called Moonsorrow - a strange mix of metal, folk and symphony, sung in Finnish. Are Wintersun something like them? -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

The Big BellEnd Group: Members Posts: 971 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Nov. 21 2010, 18:23 Could be, as long as they sing in Finnish. -------------- I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY. Back to top

Drealm Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 22 2010, 22:15 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 21 2010, 17:07) Is there anywhere I may listen to Wintersun's music? Yes. Try my TRY link on my original post! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 23 2010, 09:20 @ Lars: thanks very much for the link and for the upload. I've listened to the whole thing, I'm ambivalent about it. The music is really, utterly beautiful (is metal supposed to be beautiful? ), I don't like the vocals - too much growlin'. My favourite tracks are "Sleeping Stars" because of the choir (but there's too much growlin' in there as well), and "Death and the Healing" because Jari actually sings. Yes, I know that growlin' vocals are a key feature of the genre, but I've never liked them. They sound like rap to me - and I hate rap. Bathory's Hammerheart is a bit better, at least there's singing in it. The guy can't sing, but he does in there. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Drealm Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 24 2010, 17:18 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 23 2010, 09:20) @ Lars: thanks very much for the link and for the upload. I've listened to the whole thing, I'm ambivalent about it. The music is really, utterly beautiful (is metal supposed to be beautiful? ), I don't like the vocals - too much growlin'. My favourite tracks are "Sleeping Stars" because of the choir (but there's too much growlin' in there as well), and "Death and the Healing" because Jari actually sings. Yes, I know that growlin' vocals are a key feature of the genre, but I've never liked them. They sound like rap to me - and I hate rap. Bathory's Hammerheart is a bit better, at least there's singing in it. The guy can't sing, but he does in there. You should have begun your post by "@ Drealm" instead of "@ Lars"...but that's ok. About growling, myself I don't like and search for this particularly. What I like is a good balance, and I think Wintersun achieve this. For example, I really like Fear Factory because they have a good balance between growling and clean vocal. An other example is Therion; their firsts albums were a typical death metal growling band and I don't enjoy theses albums. But they completely changed to symphonic opera metal and all growling disappeared and the quality of the music is simply wonderful. They later did an album (Lemuria) in which they included, only in two songs, some growling and it was a perfect fit, reminiscence of their past debut mixed with their today sound. So in that context, I completely enjoyed the growling. But basically, I search for good music. If the riffs and melodies are pleasing me, that does it. I often think while listening to great metal "the music is so perfect, if only it was not spoiled by these growls..."; particularly when I listen to Cradle of Filth's Midian. I think growls can be great, it depend on the band. For example, one of the best "growler" is the band "Novembers Doom"; you can hear what he actually say (compared to Cannibal corpse where you can't hear a word) and the emotion is perfectly delivered. He also do some clean vocal so it's a great band. And we have to remember that Mike's "Five miles out" song include some growls too! Did Mike did them himself? By the way, I will give a listen to Bathory's Hammerheart and come back with my appreciation. Back to top

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