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Topic: Boléros< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Olivier Offline




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Posted: Nov. 12 2009, 12:27

- Ravel's boléro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2q-gWMAGjw

- Finale/The Bell

- Vangelis Voices (before, alas, it gets too vocal and military - this album is like The Wall mouth devouring Vangelis touch) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCAyOKqJgPQ
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Nov. 12 2009, 17:51

This is called "Variations on a theme". It's one of the oldest tricks in music... Bach already did that 600 years ago. :D That said, I have to admit that build-ups just give me the shivers up my spine every time that they reach the climax. Of course, there's people who can do that (the three you mentioned and others) and there's people who can't - and I'm not giving names here. :p

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Olivier Offline




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Posted: Nov. 12 2009, 19:34

Variations on a theme are different. Same melody with sound variation vs melody variation (multitracked in Bach's case (tracks were called voices at the time)) with same (or different I guess) sound.

One of my favorite and simplest trick is to play the same thing an octave higher. David Gilmour has developed an expertise at that.
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Nov. 13 2009, 18:19

Well, I'm not an expert in musical terminology, but I always thought that a variation is, yes, a different melody played with different sounds over the same chord sequence as the original theme, but sometimes it may also consist in a repetition of the very same melody with a different orchestration (arrangement). However, I guess you're right - more than variations of a theme, the ones you quoted are all examples of extremely well done musical build-ups, or as the learned say, crescendos. :)

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Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Nov. 14 2009, 16:42

Ravel once dismissed Bolero as 15 minutes of orchestration without music. Or so I've read. It's a bit harsh, don't you think.

There are many types of variations, you know, that.
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Nov. 14 2009, 16:50

Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 12 2009, 23:51)
Bach already did that 600 years ago.

400 is closer. Yes, I am the Date Nazi.   :D
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Nov. 14 2009, 17:00

Giovanni Allevi - Foglie di Beslan

At the very beginning this may not sound like the other pieces mentioned in this thread, but the development certainly qualifies it on the same level as the others, IMHO.
Beslan is, as you may know, a small town in Ossetia where, because of Chechen terrorists, an entire school was practically killed off by the Russians in September 2004. The title of Allevi's piece translates as "Leaves of Beslan"; he is imagining the scene as seen from the trees outside the school.


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Olivier Offline




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Posted: Nov. 14 2009, 17:21

For some reason, France didn't produce anything insanely great in music. No French Mozart, no French Vivaldi, etc. Ravel is not in the same league. Great books, great poems, great painting, music not that amazingly great. I think I kind of understand what he meant by saying it lacks music. The orchestration varies, the melody (what he means by music?) is repeated over and over. Also, perhaps, it's like a bottom-up design, he stacks things up instead of the more usual approach to write a melody idea on a piece of paper and write the song from it, top-down, applying boring recipes like a bass track, a drums track, etc. At the end also, it's like the orchestration wins, the melody just repeats the 3 same notes over and over, and it's actually probably the best and more emotional part.
I like guitar solos that converge to a single note too, like Lindsey Buckingham. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Ywb28LvbA
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Holger Offline




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Posted: Nov. 15 2009, 06:47

Quote (Olivier @ Nov. 14 2009, 23:21)
For some reason, France didn't produce anything insanely great in music. No French Mozart, no French Vivaldi, etc. Ravel is not in the same league.

Well, that's not really fair. France produced a lot of great music actually. While it's true that there seems to be no great French composer from the strictly classical (Mozart / Beethoven) period, Lully, Couperin and Rameau are very important baroque composers; Berlioz and Saint-Saëns are great romantic composers; Messiaen and Boulez are among the most important composers of the modern era; and, perhaps most significantly, Debussy was really revolutionary in his use of extended tonality, effectively laying the foundation for all modern music (not all by himself of course - other composers, including Ravel, also had a hand in it. ;) This was arguably the most fruitful period for French music overall.)
Last but not least, don't forget Satie, a very singular character in the world of classical music.

Whether any of these are "insanely great" is of course up for debate. Personally, I prefer most of them over Mozart or Vivaldi.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Nov. 15 2009, 07:35

Quote (Holger @ Nov. 15 2009, 06:47)
Quote (Olivier @ Nov. 14 2009, 23:21)
For some reason, France didn't produce anything insanely great in music. No French Mozart, no French Vivaldi, etc. Ravel is not in the same league.

Well, that's not really fair. France produced a lot of great music actually. While it's true that there seems to be no great French composer from the strictly classical (Mozart / Beethoven) period, Lully, Couperin and Rameau are very important baroque composers; Berlioz and Saint-Saëns are great romantic composers; Messiaen and Boulez are among the most important composers of the modern era; and, perhaps most significantly, Debussy was really revolutionary in his use of extended tonality, effectively laying the foundation for all modern music (not all by himself of course - other composers, including Ravel, also had a hand in it. ;) This was arguably the most fruitful period for French music overall.)
Last but not least, don't forget Satie, a very singular character in the world of classical music.

Whether any of these are "insanely great" is of course up for debate. Personally, I prefer most of them over Mozart or Vivaldi.

Yes, Olivier would have had a better argument if he'd said Switzerland instead of France - the only Swiss composer of any note I can think of is Honegger. The argument goes that the more tortured a country's past, the greater is its art. Switzerland, so the same argument goes, with its neutrality has produced nothing more important than the cuckoo clock!
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