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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 28 2006, 06:11 Listening to Mike talking on Radio 2 this morning about his source of inspiration, it seems that he thinks it lies outside himself. He seems to equate it with God - which he qualifies a little by adding something like 'however you think of God' (I can't remember his actual words). Many creative people place the source of their inspiration outside themselves in this way, and it's not difficult to understand why if you've actually experienced it (as I'm sure many of the musicians who use this website have done). I'm not enough of a musician to be able to talk about inspiration sensibly in the musical sphere, but I do encounter it my writing. I never know where my best writing comes from. I always read it afterwards with a feeling that I couldn't possibly have written that - often I feel that I simply didn't know where these words were coming from - it feels as if they just came up, or in, from somewhere. My own interpretation of this is that the best things come up from our unconscious. There are far more things going on inside us than we're conscious of, and if we can tap into that, we can reach a level of intuitive truth that we're not aware of in a normal, rational sense. But many people externalise this - they put the source of inspiration, as Mike does, outside themselves and label it 'God'. What do people think about this? Are we all meaning the same thing in essence, but just talking about it in different terms (as I believe, myself); or is there, as Mike seems to think, a real channel of inspiration through to a divine being? Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: May 28 2006, 07:01 As a composer myself, I often think about the how's and why's for the creation of my music. I think for me personally, it is a direct expression, comparable to language, in which I am able to say things in music that I would find difficult to express in everyday life. Often I put musical quotes and references to people in my music that I know would be impossible for people to detect. I guess music is a place I go to when I try to make sense of things that are happening in the world and my own life. Almost like trying to solve a puzzle and piece together my own thoughts in music. I don't think that music is a gift from God (partly because I am an atheist! or from any deeper place, I think it really is just another form of personal expression, with differing levels we can reach. I feel that Mike is able to reach at a very deep level in his own expression, hence why we as listeners 'feel' it so powerfully. I think it is something that has to be worked at very hard, to go that deep, you really have to understand yourself greatly, and usually that only happens when you have gone through terrible times in your life, because it opens up your soul like a mirror, and you can see things very clearly. Its a tough subject, but at the end of the day, If Mike feels that there is some spiritual input in his creativity then thats cool! -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: May 28 2006, 07:03 btw , do visit my site lol -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Group: Members Posts: 1548 Joined: Sep. 2005 Posted: May 28 2006, 09:04 Hehehe... nothing like a subtile bit of PR hahaha I think I can understand why he says it comes from outside him, but I'm not so sure. I don't think so. I think some people just have a sort of gift for creating melodies or lyrics, and that when they try hard enough they can get some very good results. It's not just a gift, though... I think it's just starting with the ambition to play a guitar and wanting people to listen to it. In order to do that you try to make the best song you can, and great songs are sometimes/a lot of the times universal. Not sure if I made any sense... haha... but you get what I mean, I hope   -------------- "And now we're going to play Platinum!" Back to top

maria Group: Members Posts: 928 Joined: July 2002 Posted: May 28 2006, 18:40 i have not listened to the interview yet, but i agree with those who feel the inspiration is born from something outside. for me, music is the most important source of inspiration. actually, music is what made me try to draw time ago, then i realised words were not enough to express what some music makes me feel. i cannot explain really how it happens. when a piece of music gets me deep, it triggers something and the image is there, out of the blue. -------------- ...morning and evening i'm flying, i'm dreaming... Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: May 28 2006, 18:50 Quote (Alan D @ May 28 2006, 11:11) My own interpretation of this is that the best things come up from our unconscious. There are far more things going on inside us than we're conscious of, and if we can tap into that, we can reach a level of intuitive truth that we're not aware of in a normal, rational sense. But many people externalise this - they put the source of inspiration, as Mike does, outside themselves and label it 'God'. What do people think about this? Are we all meaning the same thing in essence, but just talking about it in different terms (as I believe, myself); or is there, as Mike seems to think, a real channel of inspiration through to a divine being? I've been pondering on this one off and on for most of the day   .      As a Pagan I do believe in the Divine as both male and female, but I'm wondering where this Divine Spirit comes from, is it within ourselves or is it an external source.   Perhaps it's like Alan said buried deep within our subconcious, but we often don't realise this and in doing so place our finest moments of inspiration and creativity as coming from an external divine being call him/her/it "God"/"Godess"/"Great Spirit" or whatever name we will. Maybeif there is an external divine being,perhaps he/she/it helps us to channel our ideas from deep within ourselves         . -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 29 2006, 03:45 Some great responses here - thanks - so let me fuel the debate a little further. The feature that seems most significant here is the 'where did that come from?' factor - the feeling the artist has that he or she didn't consciously create this 'thing'. So he concludes that it came from 'outside' - like Elgar's comment that he felt he caught his music from the air around him. Ted Hughes has a superb description of the act of writing poetry in a little book called 'Poetry in the Making' - he says you shouldn't worry about the words at all. Suppose you're writing about a landscape. You focus completely on the landscape, says Hughes - enter fully into it in your imagination; smell the air; concentrate on the colours, feel the trees, and so on. Fully immerse yourself; and then, he says, words will come into your mind. Don't worry about what they are, or how to punctuate them - just don't let go of the landscape. Let the words come, and write them down. And at the end you'll find that you've have made something that has captured the landscape. You'll have made a poem. You might have to tidy it up a bit, but the essence will be there. What he describes seems to me to be a kind of intense meditative process in which the subconscious response to the landscape is allowed to break through into the conscious. I think that's why, afterwards, we feel as if we didn't do it ourselves, as if it came from outside. But for me, the astounding, thrilling aspect of this is that we did do it ourselves; that the thing I call 'myself' is deeper and truer and richer than my conscious mind ever lets me realise. If we push this 'outside' us, and label it 'God' as if it were not part of ourselves, does that not diminish this exciting discovery of what we are? Back to top

Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Group: Members Posts: 1548 Joined: Sep. 2005 Posted: May 29 2006, 11:36 It does in a way yes. But whether you think of it as something from inside of you, or from an outer source, it still can give more meaning to life, and make you richer and more self aware. So you might gain just as much in that case. So maybe it doesn't matter so much where it comes from, as long as you can appreciate and understand this poetry, or whatever philosophies or art. -------------- "And now we're going to play Platinum!" Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: May 29 2006, 14:51 Brid Brid Brid Brid; Goddess fair of the sacred well; Fire tenderer at my hearth; Keep me healthy and bless my art. Darn! Guess I should not spin and attempt to type at the same time--lost my post last night because my knee knocked my left hand, closing the entire window in the process. (Was that a sign that I shouldn't post???) Ha! Anyway.... The above is a chant that honors Brid, pronounced Breed (aka Bride, Brigit, Bridgit, etc.--lots of spelling variations). Brid is an Irish goddess associated with creativity, poetry, music--the arts. Our group holds an Imbolc/St. Brigit's Jam around early February that is very bardic--you have to bring a song, story, dance, or poem to share. There is no place to hide--everyone performs. The chant sums up my thinking and confusion about creativity and the source of inspiration. "Fire tenderer at my hearth" is the easy part--i.e., please help me to stoke the flames of inspiration and knowledge. The sacred well -- at least 800 ft. down through bedrock. It connects to the ground water or wellspring running far below. IMHO that is the source of inspiration....the wellspring.  We can reach the wellspring through meditation; other times, we are just there (like Mike said..in the middle of a supermarket). Because the well and the lid are inside us, the wellspring is always accessible, whether we are buying nappies in a supermarket or deep in meditation. For some, the lid flutters a lot and may gush water in the most unusual of places--even in a store (especially if you are near a geyser).  IMHO the wellspring is so deep that when we reach it, it seems to be "the outside," "the other," "the god/goddess force." Maybe it is.  Maybe it is the life force that connects all of creation, where synchronicity and coincidences abound. On the other hand, as Alan wonders, I question if the wellspring resides somewhere in our unconscious, within ourselves--though it may be as big as the Pacific, it is self-contained. An entire discipline of psychology deals with "sensation and perception." IMHO we humans are capable of great things, both on an individual and on a societal level. I whimper when some suggest that Machu Picchu or the pyramids were built by ET's--that we mere humans were incapable of such construction. Similarly, when artists attribute their creations to God or something beyond themselves, my initial reaction is to say, "No...it came from you! You are brilliant and you did this all by yourself!" And then I back off thinking, "Well, who knows...but you did have a major role here. You were the one who tapped into the wellspring, took it back, and fashioned it, whatever the wellspring is or connects to" (i.e., somewhere deep within ourselves, or to a connecting lifeforce) ! At the end of the day, it's a question we cannot ever answer and the source is whatever the artist believes it to be. -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 29 2006, 17:00 Quote (Inkanta @ May 29 2006, 19:51) the wellspring is so deep that when we reach it, it seems to be "the outside," "the other," "the god/goddess force." Maybe it is.  Maybe it is the life force that connects all of creation, where synchronicity and coincidences abound. On the other hand, as Alan wonders, I question if the wellspring resides somewhere in our unconscious, within ourselves--though it may be as big as the Pacific, it is self-contained. I was going to say (about the post as a whole): 'What a brilliant answer to the question'; but then of course I recognise that it isn't an answer - it's a brilliant contemplation of the question. I like, too, the clarity (and, I think, perceptive humility) of that backing off, where you think "ah, but wait ...you're the one who's been there, not me ..." Quote At the end of the day, it's a question we cannot ever answer and the source is whatever the artist believes it to be. In practical terms, that's true. But I suspect that many artists are much less interested in the source of their inspiration, than in what they're inspired to write, or paint, or compose. There's a marvellous interview with Dylan, where the interviewer compares Dylan with Handel, who spoke of a kind of pipe through which, for him, the music seemed to come. "Is it like that for you, writing songs?" he asks Dylan. Dylan shrugs. "A pipe? No..... Man - I just write 'em!" Anyway perhaps all that matters is that the artist develops a way of thinking about this that works for him; and that's all he needs. Which I think is kind of what you're saying. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 29 2006, 17:27 I don't think "inspiration" is anything really supernatural, or hard to understand. The mind just has that funny, interesting power of constructing thoughts, ideas, phrases and stuff. It's natural. Some people make up images, others make up sounds, other make up stories, other people, worlds, languages, and it's all a very natural and, dare I say it, very conscious thing. Myself, if I think really hard about it, I can hardly talk about "inspiration" in my work. I make up music in my head, and some times, my brain seems better at it than other times. It's all down to creating. We create stuff all the time. I think the big key to that is that people, in general, work better when they are not aware of how they do it, because if you try to be, you'll tend to fail. People have their own ways of doing things, and if they stop and think hard about it, they might lose it. Or at least it temporarily stops working. So, it's better to let the process happen naturally than trying to interrupt it, or trying to study it. I do believe that works. PS: you know, I don't think I ever made music with the intention of "saying" things, as in expressing feelings, emotions or what else. The only times I did that were in a strictly intellectual (i.e. dork) level, on the latest album, but other than that? I just make up stuff, and sometimes put it together so that it makes sense. What sense? Who knows! -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 29 2006, 19:37 Interesting thoughts. Not sure what I think about it. Having a kind of spiritual nature I'd like to believe in a mystical force that flows through people enabling them to produce wonderful music, art etc. But then I think it probably also has a lot to do with beautiful, illogical creativity and the right hand side of the brain. The musician/artist/poet/painter being at one with their work. Anyone who has experienced this will know just how absorbing it can be and also how necessary, a little bit addictive even. Ideas forming  (often the simpler & less contrived the better) and then taking shape and growing. Perhaps a key point here is that the artist recognises when something works & just instinctively knows it is good. Maybe it's not the place to say this, but at the very moment of the birth of my first child I had a very powerful feeling of being at one with everything in the whole world ( ) at once and that I felt I was on a different plane/ time. No drugs involved!!! It was an incredible feeling, the force of life I suppose. Could that be the same source we're talking about? A little more down to earth, it occured to me that it must be pretty frustrating if you're in the supermarket ( as Mike said in the interview) & have this blinding flash of inspiration - knowing that it's just perfect- then you get back to your studio & you have forgotten it, it's gone or changed. What do you do then?! Put the kettle on? -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: May 29 2006, 22:12 Quote (Alan D @ May 29 2006, 16:00) Anyway perhaps all that matters is that the artist develops a way of thinking about this that works for him; and that's all he needs. Which I think is kind of what you're saying. Mmm...I think so. These are the kind of things I love to think about while lying back in a grassy field, on a summer day, looking for poodles 'n' things in the clouds. I really like the topics you start! Quote (bee @ May 29 2006, 18:37) Maybe it's not the place to say this, but at the very moment of the birth of my first child I had a very powerful feeling of being at one with everything in the whole world ( ) at once and that I felt I was on a different plane/ time. No drugs involved!!! It was an incredible feeling, the force of life I suppose. Could that be the same source we're talking about? Having a child is one of the ultimate creative processes. Physiology would suggest a massive rush of endorphins, which happens during and after a large amount of exertion/exercise--e.g., the runner's high-type euphoria  one can get. Childbirth is a very magickal time--you are pushing brand new life into the world. So....if endorphins propel you to the One, it is certainly a gift of a wonderful experience and connection. All of my daughters were born via c-section (my oldest, after 31 hours of labor; the middle one after an attempted v-back; for the youngest, I gave up and scheduled the thing). I wish that at least one had been born naturally so I'd have some basis for comparison with what happens sometimes during running and dancing, i.e., the connection to the One--feeling one with the universe, feeling one with the music. It's incredible, and always well-earned--not so common for me these days as I'm usually not working at the level to reach it. The most intense experience of late was a year ago+ at the 2005 St. Brid's Jam, which I wrote about  here. The dance was beyond what I normally can do (I paid for it a bit the following week! ) or had practiced. The idea for the choreography and candles had popped into my head while dancing to something else. The night of the Jam I might have been being fed by the positive energy of everyone there but also felt a sense of connection with those beyond the room--with Brid herself. Probably the endorphins, but nontheless a lovely, beautiful experience for which I am very thankful. You raise a really good question, wondering if it's the same source. I need to think about this more. The feeling of the One that I get generally happens when I have danced something to near perfection, or have had a really long, hard run. I haven't ever designed anything creative in those moments (thinking of choreography, written a poem, article, etc.) so much as felt physically really, really good and connected. When I have written a poem or article, developed choreography (hmm...trying to think of creative-type things I do), designed a garden, it's sort of like what Sir M says--I'm not aware of how I am doing it  and it's better just to let it flow. Sometimes it's easier than other times. Sometimes a walk or break helps. But hmm...I'm thinking at this moment that it is the same place--it's just that you don't necessarily know where you are when suddenly you are in the Zone of creativity until maybe afterwards. Bee--regarding Mike's moments of inspiration in the supermarket--once he said that he writes stuff down on cigarette papers or napkins--maybe in the supermarket he uses the back of receipts. -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 30 2006, 05:10 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 29 2006, 22:27) I don't think "inspiration" is anything really supernatural, or hard to understand. The sheer quantity of varied writing about it over the last couple of centuries suggests that, on the contrary, none of our greatest writers and thinkers has so far succeeded in understanding it. Coleridge struggled hard to figure it out. Ruskin spent his whole life (writing goodness knows how many books) trying to fathom it. @bee and Inkanta: Although I know that childbirth can be mystical for some people, I don't think that's the same kind of thing. The inspired creation of art doesn't necessarily involve any kind of mystical sense of one-ness (though it might). What Ted Hughes implies is that you go through this process and then, at the end, this new thing exists - this work of art - and you have no real idea where it came from. You didn't think you had it in you. You can be (as Sir M suggests) very matter-of-fact about it, and just accept it (as Bob Dylan does) - but still, its source is deeply mysterious. There's that feeling of 'surely I didn't write or compose or paint that?' It's this aspect that drove my original question. Of course you could say that giving birth to a new human being is just as profound, and just as mysterious, and you'd be right - but I think it's importantly different. The experience itself may have been transcendental, but you knew the child was inside you all the time. You knew where it came from. Back to top

Tansy Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: April 2005 Posted: May 30 2006, 06:26 Quote (bee @ May 29 2006, 19:37) Maybe it's not the place to say this, but at the very moment of the birth of my first child I had a very powerful feeling of being at one with everything in the whole world ( ) at once and that I felt I was on a different plane/ time. No drugs involved!!! It was an incredible feeling, the force of life I suppose. Dosen't matter whether or not this is the right place to say Bee. Such a beautiful descripton of an equally beautiful experience. My youngest son Michael, began to appear in a bit of a hurry & I ended up delivering him into the world myself. There was nobody else around, and my hands were the first to ever hold him , and bring his first breath,first cry.I held him close to me immediately and it was without a doubt, the most magical time/feeling in my life. As for music, When I was a very young child, I used to spend hours sitting at/playing piano. Sometimes "different" music came & although my fingers played the keys,it felt like it hadn't come from my own mind (as it were). Still get music in my head at times & feel the same , always was too afraid to tell anyone of this for obvious reasons, now don't care if anyone thinks I've lost the plot!... does really give a lot to think about (still thinking)! Good debate going on, lots of very interesting comments here. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 30 2006, 09:43 If one doesn't "believe" he came up with what he did, maybe that has more to do with his disbelief in his own talent? Or maybe it's the same thing as one getting angry and fighting, screaming and punching things, and later on thinking "how could I ever do that"? Perhaps it has to do with us not knowing how our mind really works, I think, which is absolutely natural. We can't see what's going on within our brain and decode all the electrical impulses, but that doesn't mean they're not happening. Our mind is constantly at work, and believing in inspiration as something intangible, to me, is moving into "supernatural" territory. And I'm very sceptical about that. I know, it's a personal thing, but I refuse to believe that there's anything otherworldly going on inside our minds. Art is just something people make up. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 30 2006, 11:07 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 30 2006, 14:43) Art is just something people make up. I don't think that's enough though, Sir M. It's like saying that a star is 'just' a bunch of hydrogen nuclei undergoing fusion; or a human being is 'just' a collection of molecules (mostly water). At the most basic, trivial level, it's obviously true, but it's a partial, insignificant truth. Looking at stars can be among the most profoundly moving experiences we have, and our relationships with other similar collections of molecules (mostly water) are the most important things in our lives. Art (in all its forms) has been of fundamental importance to human beings right back to their very beginnings. Whatever we think it is, and whatever its origins may be (the jury is still out on that), any explanation has to accommodate that profound importance. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 30 2006, 11:38 Quote (Alan D @ May 30 2006, 11:07) At the most basic, trivial level, it's obviously true, but it's a partial, insignificant truth. Looking at stars can be among the most profoundly moving experiences we have, and our relationships with other similar collections of molecules (mostly water) are the most important things in our lives. But whatever relationships we have with stars or people are things we make up, anyway. Humans make up stuff; that's just nature. That's not diminishing their importance. That's just admitting, heck, human beings are quite random. There's no logics, philosophy, metaphysics or subliminal messages behind all that. It's all a question of admitting we make up stuff and depend on it. If we didn't make up stuff, our existence would be meaningless. It's something to feel glad about; why cover it all up with doubts? -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 30 2006, 13:04 [quote=Alan D,May 30 2006, 10:10][/quote] I understand your comments about poetry Alan, and remember Ted Hughes' poem The Thought Fox from years ago in relation to this. It's a poem about writing a poem - from nowhere, slowly, detail by detail a poem is formed just as a fox emerges form the darkness of night. A subconscious thought becoming a conscious one, maybe. I can sense the wonder in this. But the childbirth thing was probably a bad example (though it was good to share experiences with other board members ) Quote The experience itself may have been transcendental, but you knew the child was inside you all the time. You knew where it came from. Ofcourse I knew how it got there      & that it was a child inside me before I gave birth, but the feeling at the moment of birth was the bit I was trying to explain. The realisation  there was new life present. Whether I was high on endorphins or I had trascended the real world in a state of meditation it was powerful, profound, beyond my control. And I wondered if that was the same experience for a writer/ composer? Bringing something new into the world, never seen before, never heard before. A baby is a physical thing, a poem or piece of music is not - but they both have within them a life - it's the old question again surely. What is life? A writer, composer or mother is a vessel through which new life flows. The point about human nature made by Sir M is also true though I feel. Could it be that in making things up we just forget everything else around us & our relation to it. We concentrate from within, allowing our thoughts to be free. If we had never done this there would be nothing new invented or adapted/changed. No progression. It's a bit about curiosity too, looking at how things change or are effected by other things and that's what a child does in early life, looking at everything and wondering. Think I'm still on the fence. ...... very interesting topic. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 30 2006, 17:16 Quote (bee @ May 30 2006, 18:04) the feeling at the moment of birth was the bit I was trying to explain. The realisation  there was new life present. Whether I was high on endorphins or I had trascended the real world in a state of meditation it was powerful, profound, beyond my control. And I wondered if that was the same experience for a writer/ composer? Bringing something new into the world, never seen before, never heard before. I understood completely, Bee, what you were saying, and that the experience was a profound one in which you transcended yourself. But I'm not so sure that it's like that, necessarily, with the creation of a work of art. I suspect (judging from the things they say or write about their work) that many artists feel that they're 'just' painting; or 'just' writing the notes (or the words) down, at the time of doing it - and then afterwards think, 'Oh! Where did that come from?' as if they couldn't recognise their authorship. I think (as you suggest) that these two kinds of experience are related in some complex way that I don't understand; but I still incline to suppose that they are actually not the same kind of thing. Back to top

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