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Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: Mar. 15 2008, 14:24 Recent jocund remarks about fans and nuttiness reminded me of an episode of "I'm Alan Partridge" in which AP had an encounter with a "mentalist". Of course, it's hilarious there, but - in actuality - such extremes must be quite disturbing to those on the receiving end. It got me thinking about fandom in general - the good, the bad, and the ugly - and it's influence beyond the individual experience. It occurred to me that, despite the occasional wacko, surely a fanbase must have an overall positive impact? But how and to what extent do fans affect 1) the music business 2) an artist's output 3) public awareness, and 4) communal connection? -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Mar. 15 2008, 18:37 Hi Sweetpea. I know this is going to seem like a very cynical opinion, and not how an intriguing thread like this should start, but given the state of large corporations today the only way to affect change is to first hit them where it hurts-the pocketbook.  Let me use television as an example.  Let's say you are greatly offended by a particular program.  First you would send a message to the TV station that showed it.  You would most likely be sent an paper tiger apology that accomplished little more than a pat on your head.  The next step is where things get interesting.  You tell the station and/or network that you will no longer buy any of the products that advertise during that program.  And then to take it a step further, you then tell them you will encourage everyone you know to avoid their products as well.  The sad fact is that after all that effort you may still not get satisfaction.  The corporations know that the law of averages is on their side.  They will still make their billions from the masses that are too apathetic to take action. As fans, I would like to think that at least the artists listen to us.  But unless a fan base has access to some sort of pipeline to any given artist (and the artist is VERY involved with the feedback they want to give him), then we haven't much chance of reaching them. Clearly, the companies are in it to make money, so that's really the only bargaining chip we have.  If MO makes an album that is universally reviled, then we tell him (and the company) by not buying it.  Conversely, if he wants to see what we want, he needs only to either ask his fan clubs or look at which of his albums are the most popular/best sellers. I live in Canada so there aren't likely to be too many MO fan conventions here as compared to UK or Spain, but how many are there that MO actually drops in on?  A lot of music companies make noise about having customer-relations lines where fans can express their opinions, but I have never heard of any examples where that worked for us.  I HOPE I'M WRONG! I'm aware that this all sounds very discouraging, and I dearly want someone to rebut me so I don't end up on the sofa all evening stewing in my own pessimism-I'm actually quite a happy guy. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 04:10 Bassman, your comments are very welcome, and are just the sort of thing to open up interesting avenues of discussion. I don't think your views are overly cynical or discouraging, but then I feel that an artist should be able to follow his muse, free of demands from others. I like how Navaira once put it: "I always felt that a true artist shouldn't care about what fans think. Of course that could be called egoism, but -- an artist doesn't "owe" fans anything. In my perfect world an artist has only one person to satisfy -- him/herself. Fans will always complain -- if the artists reinvent themselves it will be about "destroying their legacy and betraying the fans", if they don't -- it will be about "not being able to think of anything new". And that's why fans should be ignored." But that's in regards to artistic output, and still leaves other questions unanswered. BTW, I've been meaning to ask... is it "Bass" as in fish, or "Bass" as in guitar? -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 04:59 It all comes down to the question of why a musician enters the business, doesn't it?  A lot of cynics say it's to meet girls or make money yadda, yadda, yadda.  What if a person gains some measure of spiritual fulfillment just through the simple act of playing, whether there's an audience or not?  Those intentions would seem to be the purest, and perhaps such a person should stay away from "the business", leaving well enough alone-no fans to disappoint, because there are no expectations.  I suppose the only way such a musician could create and be free from the risk of alienating fans would be to never charge money for their recordings or performances, which brings me to my next point. I used to work with a guy that would endlessly debate with me about music.  He was a snob against anything that seemed (in his judgment) to be too commercial.  He would go on and on about how Throbbing Gristle or Nurse With Wound were far superior to Foreigner or even MO, just because his faves were UNcommercial, as if that somehow made them superior.  I always won the arguments by reminding him that EVERYTHING is commercial once you put a price tag on the album, and I didn't recall Throbbing Gristle giving their albums away.  He'd walk off fuming.  Incidentally, I enjoy Throbbing Gristle AND Foreigner. And I absolutely agree with you that an artist should follow his/her muse.  All artists should be so lucky.  We can say with some certainty that MO was a reluctant rock star at best, just by judging how quickly he retreated to the countryside after TB went through the roof.  For the most part he has put out music that he was satisfied with and I'm glad he didn't always do what I would have had him do at any given time because his more "difficult" albums are frequently my favorites, self-perceived warts and all.  As a matter of fact, and I know I'm paraphrasing Brian Eno here, an artist's mistakes are often more interesting and enjoyable than what they carefully planned out. It's "bass" as in "bass guitar" (he said in his best Stanshall imitation).   Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 15:28 There's a thing I call the "adoration factor", after writing a paper on musical ability being genetic on not. Trying to solve the silly saying "musical ability skips a generation". It doesn't. No correlation at all. There are so many examples of sons/daughters having the same ability as their musical parents. Cited a guy named John Sloboda a lot(I think the guy is a doctor of music and psychology too). Interesting project. Point being....is there one Jim, if so get to it.......Whether someone takes up guitar, piano, etc......to get girls, fame, power or want to be a genuine artist and leave something of redreaming social value behind before they die.......I think it really comes down to "adoration" or maybe "admiration".  Someone just starting out who has no fan base or "adoration" might burn out quickly if there is no one to make their efforts feel "worthy" of more practice and time. Those who get that adoration whether their music is trash, or brilliant(like MO), are fueled to do more by that admiration/adoration. A big fan base provides that. Tubular.net and other sites provide that.  The unfairness of how adoration is doled out can be argued till your blue in the face. In MO's case, in my oppinion, it was earned and deserved.     RE the "whining thread" about Incantations......I listened to it for the 1347th time today since I was 16. I still don't hear it. Are you guys talking about tape hiss? Can you give me some time index on this or that part where you think it is noticable so I can see if it is there? Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 16:05 I think it must get harder and harder for a lot of artists who have been around awhile not to listen to their fans.It`s like a battle of wills almost with some of them and you can see why a lot of fans and artists get very frustrated sometimes.Of course one of the problems is that an artist is more than fully aware of which of his/her albums/songs are popular anyway simply down to the amount of copies they`ve sold.Or the kind of reaction they recieve from a live performance etc.What they`re maybe not always aware of though is some of the reasons why they prefer album "a" over album "b" or whatever.Quite frankly I think a large number of artists are probablly too scared to go there in all reality.It must be very difficult to get the balance right I think.And even more so for an artist who has achieved any kind of commercial success. You can look at say an artist like Neil Young who achieved massive commercial popularity with both of his Harvest and Goldrush albums in the early 70`s.And then he seemed to decide to himself.. woah this isn`t what I want anymore..."I decided to head for the gutter." he was quoted as saying.Now as much as I admire Neil Young and his kind of dogged single mindedness.A lot of that simply boils down to fear and self doubt really.They kind of retreat into a comfort zone almost,protect thy integrity at all costs,it ain`t worth the aggro.I can see why people do it it`s only human nature really to a certain extent.And indeed many of Mr Young`s finest records were made during that mid-late seventies period after Harvest anyway.But much the same as Mike gave us TB2,we also got a Harvest Moon from Neil Young in the end.Now how much either of those two records were made for themselves I guess we`ll never know.But neither of them would ever have happened without the success of their vinyl ancestors that I do know. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 16:48 @ Dirk.  LOL.  Neil Young really made that gutter remark?  That's FUNNY.  Good points about him, too.  (Hey, remember "Piece Of Crap" from a few years back?) @ Scatterplot.  It's really just a high-pitched whine or hiss that runs through the whole recording.  It's especially apparent during the quieter passages (as one would expect) like the Part 1 Intro, the 7:15 mark of Part Two-just before "Diana Luna", and the final fading cadence of Part Four.  The studio at Througham was not primitive by any means, so I just can't figure out why such a lavish recording ended up with such a defect.  My own theory, and I must say I have absolutely no empirical data to back me up, is that they must have been using cheaper cables that didn't shield noise from the signal path well enough.  I don't get how Heyworth couldn't have excised the noise in the remastering (sigh).  Maybe Chris Blair could have done a better job at Abbey Road.  Such a lovely album   . Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 18:54 Quote (Bassman @ Mar. 16 2008, 16:48) @ Dirk.  LOL.  Neil Young really made that gutter remark?  That's FUNNY.  Good points about him, too.  (Hey, remember "Piece Of Crap" from a few years back?) @ Scatterplot.  It's really just a high-pitched whine or hiss that runs through the whole recording.  It's especially apparent during the quieter passages (as one would expect) like the Part 1 Intro, the 7:15 mark of Part Two-just before "Diana Luna", and the final fading cadence of Part Four.  The studio at Througham was not primitive by any means, so I just can't figure out why such a lavish recording ended up with such a defect.  My own theory, and I must say I have absolutely no empirical data to back me up, is that they must have been using cheaper cables that didn't shield noise from the signal path well enough.  I don't get how Heyworth couldn't have excised the noise in the remastering (sigh).  Maybe Chris Blair could have done a better job at Abbey Road.  Such a lovely album   . Well I can`t remember Neil`s quote exactly but it was something along the lines of.."I didn`t wanna` go down that road(commerciality bound I guess) so I headed for the gutter."In fact he may have even said "ditch" now that I think about it.So he wanted to be right off the road completely in truth.. On the subject of the whole Incantations/whine thing it`s certainly there no doubt about it.I don`t know if it`s just more pronounced on the cd version simply because of the abcsense of static?But it`s certainly been highlighted even more that`s for sure.I`ve noticed it on quite a few albums actually.I don`t know how many XTC remasters you own Bassman?But if you`ve got a copy of The Big Express you might want to give that one a spin sometime,as there`s a similar kind of "problem" going on with that album.It`s very evident at the start of the disc,drives me round the bend sometimes..Heh heh and into the ditch. Getting back to the whole artists listening to their fans thing here for a moment.One of the main points I was trying to make with the Neil Young example was that commerciality does`nt neccessarily mean bad or not as artisticaly credible.I think it`s pretty elitist and small minded to claim otherwise actually.Arguablly the greatest band that ever existed just happened to be the most popular didn`t they?Now surely that wasn`t some sort of incredible fluke of nature or chance? I think what artists become scared of more than anything is becoming too tied down to a formula or stylistic trait.That they just end up churning these things out in the end. Pleasing neither themselves or the fans in the long run.You know obviously that can`t be helped to a certain extent,it`s what makes the better artists who they are in fact.It`s all down to self belief in the end and just how good some of those formulas were in the first place.Oh and a God given talent tends to help as well of course. As far as record companies go I still think a lot of those guys are fairly clueless really.Imo the more cultish obsessive a fanbase tends to be,for whatever artist they`re primarily concerned with.(Aside from all the celebrity bullshit of course.)Then you usually tend to find that those are the kind of artists that will stand the test of time.Or whose body of work is of the greatest value.Now surely anybody with half a mind would come to the conclusion.."Hey you know what maybe these guys may have something here." I think a lot of those A&R and exec dudes could do a lot worse than take a lot more note of some of these people. There`s still way too much money being spent on the banal and commercialy crass for my liking.Too much money spent trying to brainwash and convince people into buying into trends without soul,thought or substance.In some ways it`s still like the 1960`s where they`ll throw money at any bunch of idiots and blindly hope that a few of them come off.Unfortunatly nowadays(unlike back then) The big corporations are perfectly aware of what`s in style or conforms to their list of requirements.And less aware of genuine talent it seems..Just ask the fans guys..We know! Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 20:39 The whole thing with "nutty" fans - it's mostly in the Artistes perception. Mike as we know is quite solitary and reserved, and then there are Artistes out there who need/thrive on fans. So it's about attitude. There are many musicians who support their fanbase, regularly contribute to fan websites, release demo/out-takes. And there are the msuicians who really follow Navira's quote - what have they got to do with me? As Oldfield fans, we know by now how schizophrenic Mike is; he does his own thing, seems almost scared of us, but still seems to need positive feedback. Maybe schizophrenic is the wrong word - torn might be better. I can give a great example of an artist who has both stuck to his own musical journey, but still gives thought to what his fans want. Gary Numan has moved into metal/grunge/goth and taken some of his old fans. Gained a lot of younger ones. Lost some of the original fans. So this year he's re-released his first album complete with an extra cd of early versions and is touring the old songs. Could you imagine Mike touring MoTS and playing TB live? Then re-releasing TB with an extra demo CD? Just because he thought his fans deserved it? -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Mar. 16 2008, 22:07 Olrac, I was just remembering what Bowie did a few years back.  He structured his setlist after fan polls.  I seem to recall him doing that way back in 1990 for the "Sound And Vision" tour as well.  Oh man, how cool that would be if MO did something similar!  I smell a new thread coming:  What 20 tunes would you want MO to play live at your own birthday bash? Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Mar. 17 2008, 13:33 The Cure did a small tour a few years back where the every single track they played in the set and the order of the set was chosen by fans online 24hrs before the gig. There's tons of examples of artists doing amazing things for their fans and really getting their fans involved. As a rule I think the artists who have a good respectful relationship with their fans get a lot out of it in return. Its something I'm not sure Mike has ever learned or seemed to care about, generally anyway.  I follow quite a few musicians/bands and hands down Mike has by far the worst relationship of any artist I know of with his fans and its certainly something which has got noticeably worse in recent years. But then again he's at a point in his career in 2008 where he's got no reason to care. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 17 2008, 15:01 Quote (TOBY @ Mar. 17 2008, 17:33) hands down Mike has by far the worst relationship of any artist I know of with his fans I think Bob Dylan might be a contender for that particular distinction. But then ... I suppose he has no relationship with his fans, so maybe that doesn't count. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Mar. 18 2008, 17:01 Well, creative people can be quirky.  I think the spark that makes artists (of any genre) unique ofter comes at the expense of the proper development of some other aspect of one's personality-in this case the ability to relate to one's admirers en-masse.  Most of the time it is interpreted as a sort of mystique, which in turn makes the fans ever more curious.  I suppose in MO's case it goes hand-in-hand.  We want his creativity, so we accept the occasional lapse in social graces.  It's certainly no crime, in case anyone thinks I'm being too critical of our Mike.  I gladly accept it, because I just can't see him starting to act like, say, Paul Stanley... Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Mar. 20 2008, 01:58 And where the devil is Sweetpea?  She starts a great topic then takes the ankle express on us? Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: Mar. 20 2008, 04:33 Oh, I'm happy to watch from the sidelines as others, more capable than I, discourse on the whys and wherefores. Besides, my most important question has been answered, Mr. Bass (guitar) man.   Actually, I have been thinking on what fans want from their experience, and part of it may be the "communal connection" that I mentioned earlier. Being rather introverted, I'm not normally a joiner, but there's a certain satisfaction in interacting with other appreciators, isn't there? If only for validating one's good taste! I'd very likely still be in the dark about much of Mike's work if it weren't for fans actively spreading the good word of MO. Those first viewings of "Montreux" on YouTube led to participation at these forums and a CD buying spree. So, thanks to other fans, I went from "Eh, I've got Ommadawn and Tubular Bells II - what more could I possibly want?" to "I'm addicted! Gimme more. MORE." I do think there are those who become too emotionally attached to the object of fanhood, but I'm not qualified to really touch on the psychology of such issues. Personally, I'm happy to have some sort of distance or barrier, but that might be due to my own anti-social leanings. I'm very happy, however, to poke fun at myself and others for the little quoibles we MO-fans exhibit, which - from what I've observed here - are mostly of the innocuous variety. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Guest Unregistered Posted: Mar. 20 2008, 06:45 I actually understand a bit of MO dislike of fans.. Myself would find it very freaky to look over my shoulder every time I went out to avoid fans jumping me. Can I go to the local pub without somebody waiting on me? can I put my trash out without some crazy fans is stealing and stick their head in my garbage? The list goes on and I don´t envy famous people who have to live their life being watched all the time. In America it is far worse...you have the nosy and relentless papparazzi and more than a few times you hear of stalkers and crazy people climbing in film stars bedrooms or going public saying the gave birth to Michael Jacksons twins. But then again you need the fans to make a living. It´s a knifes edge balance.. Back to top

Navaira Group: Members Posts: 481 Joined: Jan. 2005 Posted: April 05 2008, 15:04 OMG I feel so quoted. When I said what I did, I didn't mean avoiding the fans -- I am all for outtakes/making-ofs/demo versions becoming available, I love that stuff. I just don't think there is any point in Mike reading this forum, then going "Aaaah AMAROK 2!!! That's what they want!!!!" then promptly moving himself into the studio and starting to record it. I admire Mike for avoiding the "third album syndrome" until album #25 or so. I believe that artists normally record their first album because they have something to prove and so that record is the best they can do; the second -- to prove they have more to show; and the third -- to pay for the new Ferrari. The first time I had that feeling with Mike was actually, um, with "Tubular Bells 3" (which I like). Then with "Guitars" (which I don't). Then with everything that followed, and especially "Light + Shade". "Light + Shade" just REEKED of "I need a new helicopter". And then he comes back with "Music of the Spheres" and everything's forgiven. BTW, I wouldn't like it if Mike participated on this forum. Suzanne Vega reads and sometimes answers on her forum and as a result a slightly negative remark results in hundreds of posts defending Suzanne even if she doesn't need that defence. It would be the same if Mike was here, and that's one of the reasons why I'm glad he isn't. -------------- http://www.raygrant.com :: My album 'Exorcism' is out on iTunes now Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: April 05 2008, 18:28 Perhaps he has been here, at least as a guest. Wouldn't you be curious about this site if you were him? -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 05 2008, 19:18 Maybe the admins would have to back me up here, but I'm positive Mike has been here (didn't they say once that he actually posted here exactly, precisely once?), no idea on how often. I wouldn't imagine what kind of influence we'd have on Mike; but if I were to say, I'd rather that we influenced Mike's ideas of what NOT to do than of what to do. There are dozens upon dozens of wishes of "where to go next", and I don't see them exactly as focused. Mike has visited many styles once, and fans of that style would want him to try again; but there are rather focused complaints (no more Tubular Bells! ), so I don't think it'd be maddening to browse the complaints - at least not as much as browsing the requests. As for "the noble task of defending the artist", I think there's more than enough of that without Mike actively participating - and I can't imagine it being worse. Most of us were in Mike's own forum, right? If Mike turned into a whiny bitch at the first criticism, then I could see the danger. Otherwise, I'd see no trouble. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 05 2008, 20:39 I would think that MO would gain more insight from the negative criticisms he would read rather than from sycophantic fawning.  He said as much once, upon reading a letter in a music paper that described TB as "a pile of rubbish": "That letter made me feel quite good inside.  The fact that somebody hated it was great, but quite honestly, I can't understand why that one letter had such a wonderful effect on me.  It gave me much more satisfaction than any of those positive reviews I read". (With apologies to Goldmine Magazine) Back to top

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