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Topic: Escapism? Art and Verbatim., Psychologists think Escapism is bad?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Silver Negus Offline




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Posted: Sep. 14 2007, 13:35

What does everyone think?  However, how can we 'escape' if we are 'expressing' ourselves, artistically? Are there elements of both in all art forms?

What did Mike Oldfield do, when he thought of 'Tubular Bells?'
'Express' or 'Escape?' Like a lot of artistic people it could be termed that he took the 'Verbatim' route instinctively.

Verbatim being apparantly, the correct term when an expressive person uses whatever interests, to communicate their present feelings, happy as well as sad. Either on paper, on stage etc. Its now actually used as a recognised therapy. Directors who work in theatre sometimes present a Verbatim piece on stage, on behalf of the person they've interviewed about their life experiences.    

I have mixed feelings about this.  Whilst it could be good for the person to exorcise their demons, directors and writers still take the credit, as the identity of the person is kept secret. I know, obviously. However, the equivalent wouldve been, Mike Oldfield sitting in the audience in 1973/4, whilst others performed and took credit for 'Tubular Bells.'
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: Sep. 14 2007, 14:18

You've posed some interesting questions, Silver Negus. These are things I haven't thought of much, and I'm not sure how Escapist my reactions are to MO's, or anyone else's, music.

I am a little confused by the use of the word 'Verbatim' here. I've never seen it used in this way before.


--------------
"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Sep. 14 2007, 14:29

I'm no philosopher, but I think it works in 2 ways...

Expressing yourself and creating art can be a way of escape... Some music lifts you up and makes you forget a bit about your present state of being.
Although, I feel, music can also make you more focus on how you feel. It can make the feeling you have stronger.
Like putting up a beautiful love song, when you're in love.


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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Sep. 14 2007, 15:32

When it comes to Mike I believe he doesn't think he is expressing his thoughts or emotions, rather he feels as being part of something bigger than himself, it could be escapism to some extent though. Mike has talked about losing one's self being important when making(and playing?) music, at least for him it is, thus the track title Animus?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animus_(concept)

I know all artists don't think that way, especially writers, who usually give a more precise meaning to their work and communicate with people in a more intellectual way.

edit: did this make sense? answer to the original post?
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Sep. 14 2007, 19:33

I couldn't live without escapism, and I think that in my opinion, art can be both, certain artists express what they feel, I more or less escape to it, as when I am sad, I dont necessarily write a sad song.

--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 04:02

Quote (jonnyw @ Sep. 14 2007, 19:33)
as when I am sad, I dont necessarily write a sad song.

That's exactly what Mike had too in the time of 1972/1973:
(Although, I believe, the Piltdownman-section was pure letting off steam) He was creating a wonderfully nice piece of music to escape from a world that was much less wonderful.
The opposite happens much more often, unfortunately, that's why we have so many of those terrible metal-bands, with much disturbed lyrics, I guess.


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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 08:45

Quote
That's exactly what Mike had too in the time of 1972/1973:
(Although, I believe, the Piltdownman-section was pure letting off steam) He was creating a wonderfully nice piece of music to escape from a world that was much less wonderful.
The opposite happens much more often, unfortunately, that's why we have so many of those terrible metal-bands, with much disturbed lyrics, I guess.


Thats cool, I agree.

I wouldnt like to be the type to write a sad song when i am sad. and a happy song when i am happy, Ill just write whatever happens to, get away from what usually happening ;)


--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 09:44

Quote (jonnyw @ Sep. 15 2007, 08:45)
I wouldnt like to be the type to write a sad song when i am sad. and a happy song when i am happy, ...

How can I take anything you say seriously, when you are making me laugh constantly with your new avatar!!
:laugh:


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Trinidad Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 18:06

Quote (Silver Negus @ Sep. 14 2007, 19:35)
However, how can we 'escape' if we are 'expressing' ourselves, artistically?

I suppose there can be at least two ways (and a combination of both) to see this: doing something in which you can be immersed, and that makes you forget for a moment the things you want to escape from, in which case there's no need for expression; or having the (probably unconscious) necessity to show other people your feelings or problems, thus "asking" for help to escape.

In the first case, a problem could be that, if the work of art is an expression of your feelings, it may not help you to escape at the end. And in the second case, the process of artistic creation may not be your way to escape, so you'll probably feel worse.

Maybe there could be a third case, as "Bleeding Gum Murphy" would say: "It isn't about feeling better, it's about making other people feel worse, and making a few bucks while you're at it".


Quote (Silver Negus @ Sep. 14 2007, 19:35)
What did Mike Oldfield do, when he thought of 'Tubular Bells?'
'Express' or 'Escape?'

Both, I would say. He's said that music was a way to escape from the problems, but he also said that it was an expression of himself at the time.


Quote (Harmono @ Sep. 14 2007, 21:32)
When it comes to Mike I believe he doesn't think he is expressing his thoughts or emotions, rather he feels as being part of something bigger than himself

Yes, I think he said, more or less, that he just listens to the spirits and then writes/plays what he's heard. But there're many spirits to hear, with happy, sad, angry... voices, and you can be paying attention just to those that match your feelings, as well as adding your own spirit to the artistic work you're creating.


I really haven't deeply thought about it, though, so that's just my actual point of view.
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Ebony Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 20:34

Art can be both; I've used it to express how I'm feeling (more often than not in the form of angst-ridden song lyrics written at 3am), and to escape when everything's getting on top of me.
But while when I want to express how I'm feeling, I'll do it through writing said angst-ridden song lyrics or whatever, if I want to escape, I find it easier to listen to music, or to read and immerse myself in a different world that way rather than escaping by creating something.

When I'm writing, it can make me forget problems and issues for a while, because I'm thinking about something else, but I can never fully immerse myself into whatever I'm writing about because I've got to keep half a mind on grammar, dialogue, making sure it makes sense etc.
But when I'm listening to music, appreciating the art instead of creating it, I can give my imagination free rein, and just let it take me wherever it takes me (though in the case of Mike Oldfield's music, certain albums and songs take me to the same place every time).

I don't know whether this is the same when you're making music or painting/drawing.  Seeing as I can't draw for toffee and I have all the musical talents of a deaf penguin, I can only talk from the perspective of a writer (which I've been told I'm not half bad at! )
:)
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 21:17

Quote (Ebony @ Sep. 16 2007, 01:34)
When I'm writing, it can make me forget problems and issues for a while, because I'm thinking about something else, but I can never fully immerse myself into whatever I'm writing about because I've got to keep half a mind on grammar, dialogue, making sure it makes sense etc.
But when I'm listening to music, appreciating the art instead of creating it, I can give my imagination free rein, and just let it take me wherever it takes me (though in the case of Mike Oldfield's music, certain albums and songs take me to the same place every time).

I think part of the escape is the actual thinking pattern involved for some. It can depend, if you are the type to write a "Singer/Songrwriter" style, like - one person, voice, acoustic guitar and poem, then I guess most of the work goes into the actual poetry etc involved, and grammar mistakes can be edited after.

I must say from my persepctive, (it must  be the years of listening to MO) But my time is spent producing the music as well as writing it, and most of my escape comes also from the problems you ecounter, and you dont have to worry about anyone else, you just work on, and find a solution.

At least thats what it is for me, I appreciate that other art is created in much diffrent ways. I have seen the same thing done differently a lot of different times.


Quote

I can only talk from the perspective of a writer (which I've been told I'm not half bad at! )
:)


Cool, do you have anything published?


--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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Ebony Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 22:18

Not yet.  I'm hoping to one day, but I think that day's a long way off!  One, cause I tend to jump from idea to idea and often leave stuff unfinished, and two, cause I'm rather secretive about my writing.  Not about the fact that I write, but when it comes to people actually reading it, I get all silly and embarrassed.  Maybe cause I put too much of me into it, or maybe it's just cause I can't seem to believe that anyone would like what I write, despite some people telling me they do.

The best songs/poems and stuff that I've written do tend to just come straight from my head, with no heed to grammar or structure.  It's when I try to alter them that I seem to ruin it somehow, like the original feeling and atmosphere is lost in technicalities.

But when it comes to stories and such, I tend to have to think about it, and go over certain bits to make sure they're ok; it can't be a direct feed from my head, so to speak, otherwise the style might randomly change, or a character's personality will suddenly be different.

I guess it's because if I really want to get away from everything for a while, I have to let my mind drift off to wherever, and I can't do that if I'm trying to concentrate on something else too.
:)
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 22:22

It's inevitable, but my Personal Library of Words and Meanings (a.k.a. some region of my brain) inevitably associates "Escapism" with "the worst possible way of dealing with a problem", which is turning your back to your problems and pretending they're not there: they still are, they still exist, they're still getting bigger and worse, yet you are in some merry land pretending all is fine. I just wonder if that is what we're talking about here, or we're rather referring to distraction, which is what every sensible human being needs: taking a break from your problems for a while when you know you're not in the right conditions to face them off. Yes, it's just terminology, but after I've realised how important formalism is, I can't handle wrong terminology...

So, um... referring to my own definitions, I can't see how escapism can possibly good in the long run. Most problems, when not directly attacked, tend to grow, and I don't see the advantages of generally letting them grow. Even the problems that tend to fade away naturally could use a little handling. Distraction, though, is what keeps us sane; it's going home, having a night of sleep and a shower to come back to your work and realise that bloody bastard problem was caused by a line of code you had completely missed. Music most definitely can be an excellent method of distraction. That's what it usually is, as far as listening goes. As for making it, well, the process of making music usually generates a lot of problems, so unless you're cruising on auto-pilot (which can be a great deal of fun), you're not really getting distracted. Same goes for writing, I suppose, and most other art forms.

Making music as a form of addressing your problems, well, Robert Smith did that a lot early on his career and it seemed to work. :) Taking Pornography (the ALBUM!! ) as an example, a lot of troubled people can potentially relate to it. That can be good; after all, one realises he's not really alone, his problems aren't really one-of-a-kind, and there might be a way out. It's the applied use of art. As for the artist, he can use the art as a way of stating things he can't state with words. Even though I'm one of those who thinks if something can't be properly explained in words, it probably doesn't exist (really, :) ), this can potentially work.

Personally, I try not to make use of escapism - usually because when I have a problem, I tend to keep chewing on it for a long time, unable to think of anything else. If I am moderately aware it's a problem I can solve with relative ease, there's no need to escape. Escaping is a way of not realising things. I've had my fair share of not realising things in the past and I don't wanna be like that again. :) I tend to face the process of making art as highly (if not purely) intellectual process, so I externalise it from my own life. And it's very useful, you know - it stops you from writing music you'll probably regret having written later on. I mean, Bob Dylan reckons he shouldn't have written "Ballad in Plain D", but it's done already. That's what "emotion" does to you, right. :)

As for writing, well, writing is a much more verbal medium than music, so I think it's easier to address problems in it. I've done that once, and it seems to work. :) You can properly state things on writing, where as on music, you can pretty much only suggest it. I can't help but feel that if a musician is forcing one and only one very specific meaning into a piece of music, then he's destroying the very essence of music. Writing can also be like that, but it needn't.


--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Trinidad Offline




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Posted: Sep. 15 2007, 23:33

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 16 2007, 04:22)
So, um... referring to my own definitions, I can't see how escapism can possibly good in the long run. Most problems, when not directly attacked, tend to grow, and I don't see the advantages of generally letting them grow. Even the problems that tend to fade away naturally could use a little handling.

But that's not always so easy. There're many kinds of problems which simply doesn't depend on you to be solved, or with a solution that just leads to more problems... And the options are either to escape and forget them till their end (if there's one), or to repeat "I've got a problem, I've got a problem, I've got a problem...". I think the second option can't be helpful or healthy at all, can it?

For example, what could Mike do about his parents when he was a child? I just can't think about anything reasonable. For me, he did the best possible thing: just to escape from that. He would have gone quite probably even more crazy if he hadn't found a way to look in other direction, a world without those problems.


Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 16 2007, 04:22)
I can't help but feel that if a musician is forcing one and only one very specific meaning into a piece of music, then he's destroying the very essence of music.

Well, that depends on what we understand with "very essence of music". What do you think it is?
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Sep. 16 2007, 03:53

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 16 2007, 03:22)
I tend to face the process of making art as highly (if not purely) intellectual process, so I externalise it from my own life. And it's very useful, you know - it stops you from writing music you'll probably regret having written later on. I mean, Bob Dylan reckons he shouldn't have written "Ballad in Plain D", but it's done already. That's what "emotion" does to you, right.

It may also stop you from writing the best music you'll ever write. Dylan may have regretted writing 'Ballad in Plain D', but the process he used in composing it wasn't particularly different from his usual method as far as I know, which is highly intuitive and not what I'd normally call intellectual. If he'd stifled that impulse, we wouldn't have had 'Plain D' sure enough, but we wouldn't have had most of the masterpieces either.

But our attitudes change over time. Looking back at many years of writing, I now find I take least satisfaction in my intellectually-driven, scholarly productions. Anyone could have done them, given a bit of research and thought. By contrast, the more freely expressive, intuitive, personal pieces of writing are the ones I feel proudest of. The risk is higher of course, as you point out. You could end up with a 'Ballad in Plain D'. But I think risk is part of the game.

I'm not saying the intellect should play no part; but I think the greatest art represents a kind of delicate balance between the conscious intellectual approach and the direct, intuitive response.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Sep. 16 2007, 04:11

Quote (Ebony @ Sep. 16 2007, 03:18)
The best songs/poems and stuff that I've written do tend to just come straight from my head, with no heed to grammar or structure.  It's when I try to alter them that I seem to ruin it somehow, like the original feeling and atmosphere is lost in technicalities.

The best advice I ever read about this problem comes from Ted Hughes in a brilliant little book called 'Poetry in the Making'. He asks how you control the words while writing a poem (or any other writing for that matter). How do you stop the words killing each other? You don’t have to bother about that, he says, provided you do one thing:

"That one thing is, imagine what you are writing about. See it and live it. Do not think it up laboriously, as if you were working out mental arithmetic. Just look at it, touch it, smell it, listen to it, turn yourself into it. When you do this, the words look after themselves, like magic. If you do this you do not have to bother about commas or full-stops or that sort of thing. You do not look at the words either. You keep your eyes, your ears, your nose, your taste, your touch, your whole being on the thing you are turning into words. The minute you flinch, and take your mind off this thing, and begin to look at the words and worry about them … then your worry goes into them and they set about killing each other. So you keep going as long as you can, then look back and see what you have written. After a bit of practice, and after telling yourself a few times that you do not care how other people have written about this thing, this is the way you find it; and after telling yourself you are going to use any old word that comes into your head so long as it seems right at the moment of writing it down, you will surprise yourself. You will read back through what you have written and you will get a shock. You will have captured a spirit, a creature."

This brings us nicely back to the topic of escapism. The point is that what Hughes is suggesting is NOT escapism (though it might sound like it). It's actually a deeper imaginative penetration into the truth. It doesn't matter whether you're writing about a landscape, or a lover, or a sunset - the way to make the words live is to immerse yourself completely in the reality of the landscape or the lover or the sunset. That's what imagination and art is really for - to enter more fully into reality, not to escape from it; but you only realise that when you're actually there, doing it. To an unimaginative person it may just seem like empty daydreaming.
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Sep. 16 2007, 08:28

Quote
Personally, I try not to make use of escapism - usually because when I have a problem, I tend to keep chewing on it for a long time, unable to think of anything else.


I think this is true depending on the problem at hand though. for me, I tend not to think about those things, and I suppose I am being a coward about most of it, but i would rather be far away in my own "Merry world". Makes more sense to me than trying to "talk" this over with people, That i am terrible at doing.


--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Sep. 16 2007, 10:56

Quote (Alan D @ Sep. 16 2007, 03:53)
But our attitudes change over time. Looking back at many years of writing, I now find I take least satisfaction in my intellectually-driven, scholarly productions. Anyone could have done them, given a bit of research and thought. By contrast, the more freely expressive, intuitive, personal pieces of writing are the ones I feel proudest of. The risk is higher of course, as you point out. You could end up with a 'Ballad in Plain D'. But I think risk is part of the game.

I'm not saying the intellect should play no part; but I think the greatest art represents a kind of delicate balance between the conscious intellectual approach and the direct, intuitive response.

Yes, exactly. I should maybe have made my point clearer, up there. What I intended to say is that music isn't solely emotion; and if you do fall on that trap, you're running the risk of ending up with a lot of nonsense. The idea that "music = emotion" is a misconception, in my opinion; there is always an intellectual side to it, and it's not an obstacle.

--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Sep. 16 2007, 15:13

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 16 2007, 15:56)
Quote (Alan D @ Sep. 16 2007, 03:53)
But our attitudes change over time. Looking back at many years of writing, I now find I take least satisfaction in my intellectually-driven, scholarly productions. Anyone could have done them, given a bit of research and thought. By contrast, the more freely expressive, intuitive, personal pieces of writing are the ones I feel proudest of. The risk is higher of course, as you point out. You could end up with a 'Ballad in Plain D'. But I think risk is part of the game.

I'm not saying the intellect should play no part; but I think the greatest art represents a kind of delicate balance between the conscious intellectual approach and the direct, intuitive response.

Yes, exactly. I should maybe have made my point clearer, up there. What I intended to say is that music isn't solely emotion; and if you do fall on that trap, you're running the risk of ending up with a lot of nonsense. The idea that "music = emotion" is a misconception, in my opinion; there is always an intellectual side to it, and it's not an obstacle.

There is definatley an intellectual side involved, but it varies on t he peice. Personally i have written some things completely inuitively, with very little "intellectual" or "theoretical" efoort put in, other times i over think it and it turns out to be usually a mess.

It depends on the art form too i think.


--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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Ebony Offline




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Posted: Sep. 20 2007, 19:38

Quote (Alan D @ Sep. 16 2007, 09:11)
The best advice I ever read about this problem comes from Ted Hughes in a brilliant little book called 'Poetry in the Making'. He asks how you control the words while writing a poem (or any other writing for that matter). How do you stop the words killing each other? You don’t have to bother about that, he says, provided you do one thing:

"That one thing is, imagine what you are writing about. See it and live it. Do not think it up laboriously, as if you were working out mental arithmetic. Just look at it, touch it, smell it, listen to it, turn yourself into it. When you do this, the words look after themselves, like magic. If you do this you do not have to bother about commas or full-stops or that sort of thing. You do not look at the words either. You keep your eyes, your ears, your nose, your taste, your touch, your whole being on the thing you are turning into words. The minute you flinch, and take your mind off this thing, and begin to look at the words and worry about them … then your worry goes into them and they set about killing each other. So you keep going as long as you can, then look back and see what you have written. After a bit of practice, and after telling yourself a few times that you do not care how other people have written about this thing, this is the way you find it; and after telling yourself you are going to use any old word that comes into your head so long as it seems right at the moment of writing it down, you will surprise yourself. You will read back through what you have written and you will get a shock. You will have captured a spirit, a creature."

Great advice there.  :)
It's what I always try to do, and when I manage, the results are quite fantastic.  It's when my internal thesaurus switches from "automatic" to "extreme manual" that I have a problem; constantly thinking "but there must be a better word for that!" and ending up committing language overkill.
I can't remember where I heard this, or who said it, but I'm sure someone once said that the greatest stories write themselves, and I think for the most part this is true.  When I take a back seat, and let my imagination and the story itself take over, sometimes it goes off on a tangent to my original plan, but it always ends up better than when I stubbornly stick to a sequence of events that has to happen in a particular way and refuse to consider an alternative.

I'd still call what I do when I'm listening to TSODE, Voyager, Ommadawn et al. escapism though.  Because then I'm immersing myself in another world for the sole purpose of getting lost in that world (while appreciating the music of course) and forgetting about this one for a while.
:cool:
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