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Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: June 18 2023, 16:16 For me....some of the most impressive and often under-appreciated (of course there are the much more universally known ones that don't need to be mentioned) non-Mike Oldfield albums (in similar or not so similar genres) are 1.  Stevie Wonder's Journey through the Secret Life of Plants 2. Genesis -  A Trick of the Tail 3. Tangerine Dream - Legend Soundtrack (the complete 1 hour 20 minute version) 4. Fleetwood Mac - Tusk 5. JM Jarre - Equinoxe Infinity 6. Andrew Lloyd Webber - Variations 7. Queen - Innuendo 8. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice - Jesus Christ Superstar 9. The Doors - An American Prayer 10. Pink Floyd - The Final Cut 11. Genesis - We Can't Dance 12. (The Artists Formerly Known as) Goblin - Tenebre Soundtrack 13. Goblin - Profondo Rosso Soundtrack 14. Simple Minds -Street Fighting Years 15. U2 - Zooropa 16. Sky - ....Cadmium 17. Sky - The Great Balloon Race 18. Sky - Sky 3 19. Sky - Sky 4: Forthcoming 20. Vangelis - Voices 21. Jon & Vangelis - Private Collection 22. Ennio Morricone - Once Upon a Time in America Soundtrack 23. Robert Plant - Fate of Nations 24. Meat Puppets - No Joke! 25. Meat Puppets - To High to Die 26. The Afghan Whigs - Black Love 27. Red Hot Chili Peppers - One Hot Minute 28. Pearl Jam - No Code 29. The Clean - Modern Rock 30. Sebadoh - Harmacy 31. Moby - Everything Is Wrong 32. Future Sound of London - Dead Cities 33. Orbital - In Sides And 100s more......33 feels like a good round number. Special bonus: 34. Karl Jenkins - Adiemus V: Vocalise Finally, because of yet another Oldfield/Music of the Spheres connection: 35. Hayley Westenra and Ennio Morricone - Paradiso Finally finally.... 36. Tangerine Dream - Mars Polaris Honorable mention(s) 37.  Fabio Frizzi - The Beyond Soundtrack 38. Spiritualized - Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space 39. Ride - Going Blank Again 40. Fabio Frizzi - Zombi 2 Soundtrack Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 23 2023, 02:21 IMO "One hot minute" and "We can't dance" are the worst albums from the respective artists! I really love "Profondo rosso". The main theme is obviously nicked from Tubular Bells. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: June 25 2023, 18:16 Quote (larstangmark @ June 23 2023, 02:21) IMO "One hot minute" and "We can't dance" are the worst albums from the respective artists! I really love "Profondo rosso". The main theme is obviously nicked from Tubular Bells. One Hot Minute is by far the best of their albums....every note is essential.  It's absolutely thrillingly extraordinary and so far beyond any other RHCP set, it's hard to even believe it's the same band!   We Cant' Dance has some lesser what you might call filler, but also contains Genesis's greatest masterpiece stadium anthem and arguably one of the greatest tunes of progressive or any other rock genres, namely "Fading Lights" - an astoundingly brilliant, moving and emotional piece of sublime art.  Without doubt, it boasts the greatest synthesizer solo of all time, ever, anywhere, by anyone.  The live version from The Way We Walk is also magnificent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao34UhjV5ZM Also Living Forever, Dreaming While You Sleep, and others are also among their best works.  Really a remarkable signing-off LP from one of the crowning years of rock and popular music and new emerging genres as mainstream/dinosaur rock was eclipsed by alternative, grunge and electronic/rave/hiphop and other urban types of sounds (Achtung Baby, Innuendo, Dangerous, and far too many to mention other great and classic records both mainstream, alternative, urban, etc. also released that year, 1991.  Needless to say, Earth Moving is sadly not one of them..! Like I mentioned I specifically chose albums that are perhaps less well known or regarded whilst skipping  over many of the more obvious ones that don't need to be mentioned. Profondo Rosso is one of the movies where the soundtrack and movie itself are almost equally outstanding and yet even so as a standalone piece of music it could still be considered a tremendous masterpiece.  The Beyond is another example of this among many others. Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: June 26 2023, 04:43 Quote (larstangmark @ June 23 2023, 02:21) I really love "Profondo rosso". The main theme is obviously nicked from Tubular Bells. Hmm there is some similarity in terms of the instrumentation and basic structure but the tempo and intensity and obviously actual melody are all quite unique.  It might be being unfair to say "obviously nicked". Up until now, I had never made any connection. That's a slippery slope because before you know it, you will be accusing "Blurred Lines" of plagiarizing Marvin Gaye's Got to Give It Up, the most absurd, frivolous, and shameless legal suit in recorded history, successful or otherwise!  I feel that Goblin very much geared the theme tune to the requirements of the movie - intense, pounding, relentless, explosive, violent, but at the same time, over the top, gaudy and almost joyously intoxicating.  Whereas the TB/Exorcist theme is much more subdued, somber, serious and brooding. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 26 2023, 04:56 "Obviously nicked" was a bit unfair perhaps, but I can certainly hear the influence. Plus it's a horror movie theme, and Goblin was probably listening to other soundtracks, like that to the Exorcist. The "Halloween" theme (by John Carpenter) is a bit similiar. I think TB (although not as dramatic as the others), is the daddy of these "dramatic notes over an ostinato figure"-type themes. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: June 26 2023, 05:27 Quote (larstangmark @ June 26 2023, 04:56) "Obviously nicked" was a bit unfair perhaps, but I can certainly hear the influence. Plus it's a horror movie theme, and Goblin was probably listening to other soundtracks, like that to the Exorcist. The "Halloween" theme (by John Carpenter) is a bit similiar. I think TB (although not as dramatic as the others), is the daddy of these "dramatic notes over an ostinato figure"-type themes. Great point about Halloween.  Again I'd never made the connection but it's obvious really.  Of course the irony is that Mike Oldfield never wrote the Tubular Bells "theme" with the intention of it being the soundtrack to a horror movie. Interestingly, the wonderfully cheerful yet haunting song "School at Night", the child's lullaby, from Profondo Rosso bears a striking resemblance to the "Lullaby" theme from Rosemary's Baby.   And the Suspiria (1977) theme also has a vaguely similar sound to all of the above, both with the xylophones/glockenspiel/timpani and bells as well as the whispered "la la la la la la la" refrain. Back to top

First_Excursion Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: Aug. 2012 Posted: July 23 2023, 00:10 Think Fate of Nations definitely has its moments but I can't fathom the omission of Sky 2! Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: July 23 2023, 06:26 I did a collage of some of my favourite albums a few years ago. Here it is. It saves me a lot of typing. albums Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: July 23 2023, 20:28 Quote (First_Excursion @ July 23 2023, 00:10) Think Fate of Nations definitely has its moments but I can't fathom the omission of Sky 2! Fate of Nations is an incredible album, it almost rivals some of Led Zeppelin's albums (well, Coda and Presence, anyway).  In fact, Plant's entire solo catalog (at least up to 1993...not sure about anything after that date) is remarkably impressive, and sadly undervalued I feel.   And as I said in the OP (original post), I was only selecting some of the more unobvious choices, hence listed a couple of the less popular Sky albums, which is the reason for that omission. If it was just a case of the obvious albums that go without saying then you would have to include The Wall, Abbey Road, Dark Side of the Moon, Rumours, etc. but I wasn't interested in making a list of the same tired old cliched entries that you see everywhere. Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: July 23 2023, 20:33 Quote (familyjules @ July 23 2023, 06:26) I did a collage of some of my favourite albums a few years ago. Here it is. It saves me a lot of typing. albums Jules That's great!  I love that concept.  I see you have Abbey Road at number one which is a very good choice.  That is definitely The Beatles' masterpiece (their only truly complete masterpiece in fact in my very humble opinion.  I often think that some of their other long-players such as the so-called White Album and Sgt. Pepper's are somewhat overrated).  Speaking of overrated, I'm glad you didn't include Pet Sounds! (At least I don't think you did).  Much as The Beach Boys are geniuses and one of the truly great bands, the reverence shown to that, on the whole, strictly average record, is bordering on the obscene. The Richard and Linda Thompson album "I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight" is an LP I've had on the radar and been meaning to sample for a while now.  Thanks for the reminder, I'm curious to see how it is.  And it's nice to see the 90s Britpop and lo-fi/alternative choices among the dinosaur rock.  Fascinating choices, many of those albums I haven't heard but any list that includes LA Woman gets a pass from me (The Soft Parade is my personal favorite of theirs, even given the couple of filler tracks). Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: July 24 2023, 05:20 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ July 23 2023, 20:33) Quote (familyjules @ July 23 2023, 06:26) I did a collage of some of my favourite albums a few years ago. Here it is. It saves me a lot of typing. albums Jules That's great!  I love that concept.  I see you have Abbey Road at number one which is a very good choice.  That is definitely The Beatles' masterpiece (their only truly complete masterpiece in fact in my very humble opinion.  I often think that some of their other long-players such as the so-called White Album and Sgt. Pepper's are somewhat overrated).  Speaking of overrated, I'm glad you didn't include Pet Sounds! (At least I don't think you did).  Much as The Beach Boys are geniuses and one of the truly great bands, the reverence shown to that, on the whole, strictly average record, is bordering on the obscene. The Richard and Linda Thompson album "I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight" is an LP I've had on the radar and been meaning to sample for a while now.  Thanks for the reminder, I'm curious to see how it is.  And it's nice to see the 90s Britpop and lo-fi/alternative choices among the dinosaur rock.  Fascinating choices, many of those albums I haven't heard but any list that includes LA Woman gets a pass from me (The Soft Parade is my personal favorite of theirs, even given the couple of filler tracks). Hmm, let me unpick this... I do love Abbey Road, but with the caveat that it's not John's greatest showing with the group. I have a complicated relationship with 'the white album' but would never dare to call Sgt Pepper overrated. Rubber Soul and Revolver are very dear to my heart as well, and in many ways these are more authentic Beatles records than Abbey Road, but Abbey Road sounds glorious. It pretty much invented the 1970s. I also wouldn't dare to call Pet Sounds 'average'. It's a great piece of work, and perhaps I've outgrown it or it's a little overfamiliar. I much prefer Sunflower and Surf's Up, but that's just me. Yeah, do check out that Richard and Linda LP. It's really very good indeed. I love all the Doors albums to varying degrees, but wouldn't be without any of them (except the last one without Jim, Full Circle, which is a turkey, to be honest). I compiled that collage when I wasn't listening to much Mike, by the way, so just Ommadawn representing him. These days, I'd probably slip two or three more of his in there. My favourites are always fading in and out depending on where I am in my life. Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: July 24 2023, 06:16 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ June 18 2023, 16:16) For me....some of the most impressive and often under-appreciated (of course there are the much more universally known ones that don't need to be mentioned) non-Mike Oldfield albums (in similar or not so similar genres) are 1.  Stevie Wonder's Journey through the Secret Life of Plants 2. Genesis -  A Trick of the Tail 3. Tangerine Dream - Legend Soundtrack (the complete 1 hour 20 minute version) 4. Fleetwood Mac - Tusk 5. JM Jarre - Equinoxe Infinity 6. Andrew Lloyd Webber - Variations 7. Queen - Innuendo 8. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice - Jesus Christ Superstar 9. The Doors - An American Prayer 10. Pink Floyd - The Final Cut 11. Genesis - We Can't Dance 12. (The Artists Formerly Known as) Goblin - Tenebre Soundtrack 13. Goblin - Profondo Rosso Soundtrack 14. Simple Minds -Street Fighting Years 15. U2 - Zooropa 16. Sky - ....Cadmium 17. Sky - The Great Balloon Race 18. Sky - Sky 3 19. Sky - Sky 4: Forthcoming 20. Vangelis - Voices 21. Jon & Vangelis - Private Collection 22. Ennio Morricone - Once Upon a Time in America Soundtrack 23. Robert Plant - Fate of Nations 24. Meat Puppets - No Joke! 25. Meat Puppets - To High to Die 26. The Afghan Whigs - Black Love 27. Red Hot Chili Peppers - One Hot Minute 28. Pearl Jam - No Code 29. The Clean - Modern Rock 30. Sebadoh - Harmacy 31. Moby - Everything Is Wrong 32. Future Sound of London - Dead Cities 33. Orbital - In Sides And 100s more......33 feels like a good round number. Special bonus: 34. Karl Jenkins - Adiemus V: Vocalise Finally, because of yet another Oldfield/Music of the Spheres connection: 35. Hayley Westenra and Ennio Morricone - Paradiso Finally finally.... 36. Tangerine Dream - Mars Polaris Honorable mention(s) 37.  Fabio Frizzi - The Beyond Soundtrack 38. Spiritualized - Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space 39. Ride - Going Blank Again 40. Fabio Frizzi - Zombi 2 Soundtrack I love Meat Puppets. And Sebadoh's Harmacy. Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: July 24 2023, 18:17 Quote (familyjules @ July 24 2023, 05:20) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ July 23 2023, 20:33) Quote (familyjules @ July 23 2023, 06:26) I did a collage of some of my favourite albums a few years ago. Here it is. It saves me a lot of typing. albums Jules That's great!  I love that concept.  I see you have Abbey Road at number one which is a very good choice.  That is definitely The Beatles' masterpiece (their only truly complete masterpiece in fact in my very humble opinion.  I often think that some of their other long-players such as the so-called White Album and Sgt. Pepper's are somewhat overrated).  Speaking of overrated, I'm glad you didn't include Pet Sounds! (At least I don't think you did).  Much as The Beach Boys are geniuses and one of the truly great bands, the reverence shown to that, on the whole, strictly average record, is bordering on the obscene. The Richard and Linda Thompson album "I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight" is an LP I've had on the radar and been meaning to sample for a while now.  Thanks for the reminder, I'm curious to see how it is.  And it's nice to see the 90s Britpop and lo-fi/alternative choices among the dinosaur rock.  Fascinating choices, many of those albums I haven't heard but any list that includes LA Woman gets a pass from me (The Soft Parade is my personal favorite of theirs, even given the couple of filler tracks). Hmm, let me unpick this... I do love Abbey Road, but with the caveat that it's not John's greatest showing with the group. I have a complicated relationship with 'the white album' but would never dare to call Sgt Pepper overrated. Rubber Soul and Revolver are very dear to my heart as well, and in many ways these are more authentic Beatles records than Abbey Road, but Abbey Road sounds glorious. It pretty much invented the 1970s. I also wouldn't dare to call Pet Sounds 'average'. It's a great piece of work, and perhaps I've outgrown it or it's a little overfamiliar. I much prefer Sunflower and Surf's Up, but that's just me. Yeah, do check out that Richard and Linda LP. It's really very good indeed. I love all the Doors albums to varying degrees, but wouldn't be without any of them (except the last one without Jim, Full Circle, which is a turkey, to be honest). I compiled that collage when I wasn't listening to much Mike, by the way, so just Ommadawn representing him. These days, I'd probably slip two or three more of his in there. My favourites are always fading in and out depending on where I am in my life. Jules I might have to review my opinions on some of those records...!  Some like Pet Sounds & Sgt Pepper I haven't listened to thoroughly for many many years after never having been initially impressed by them. I agree the question of what are the top Mike Oldfield albums is possibly a trickier question than what are the best in general! Due to the sheer consistent density of quality across his entire oeuvre over such an extraordinarily extended period of time, an achievement which is utterly unmatched by any other artist or performer working in any genre in the last 100+ years.  As far as I am concerned, the rating would be something like this: 1. Tubular Bells 2, (which IMO is comfortably #1 and in fact nothing less than the greatest album by anyone, of any genre). 2. Tubular Bells 3 as the clear top two and then any of the following could take the next spots (I know these aren't the normal contenders; for example most people would put Ommadawn at or near the top; but this is where they stack up in my own heart): 3. Music of the Spheres 4. Return to Ommadawn 5. Songs of Distant Earth 6. Five Miles Out (I still say that "Taurus II" is overall his single greatest piece). Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: July 25 2023, 05:42 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ July 24 2023, 18:17) I agree the question of what are the top Mike Oldfield albums is possibly a trickier question than what are the best in general! Due to the sheer consistent density of quality across his entire oeuvre over such an extraordinarily extended period of time, an achievement which is utterly unmatched by any other artist or performer working in any genre in the last 100+ years.   This isn't how I view Mike's career. For me, the first four are easily the greatest music he ever made, and everything since has either frustrated me or appalled me, to varying degrees (except Moonlight Shadow which is sublime). For consistency of quality over an extended period of time, I look elsewhere. Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

First_Excursion Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: Aug. 2012 Posted: Aug. 05 2023, 03:51 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ July 23 2023, 20:28) And as I said in the OP (original post), I was only selecting some of the more unobvious choices, hence listed a couple of the less popular Sky albums, which is the reason for that omission. Oh I beg your pardon. From your list I choose Sky 3, it was all maturing way too fast for me after that.   Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: Aug. 09 2023, 01:03 Quote (First_Excursion @ Aug. 05 2023, 03:51) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ July 23 2023, 20:28) And as I said in the OP (original post), I was only selecting some of the more unobvious choices, hence listed a couple of the less popular Sky albums, which is the reason for that omission. Oh I beg your pardon. From your list I choose Sky 3, it was all maturing way too fast for me after that.   Cadmium is their greatest (Telex from Peru is their greatest overall track) and The Great Balloon Race the next best of their albums (the title track of the latter is their 2nd greatest track).  The Mozart album is a brilliant work, and sort of perfects and far surpasses everything that the whole "Hooked on Classics" series (which in its own right is outstanding, especially the first two volumes) was trying for. Weirdly, they actually got better after John Williams departed! Like he was holding them back creatively somehow. Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: Aug. 09 2023, 01:12 Quote (familyjules @ July 25 2023, 05:42) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ July 24 2023, 18:17) I agree the question of what are the top Mike Oldfield albums is possibly a trickier question than what are the best in general! Due to the sheer consistent density of quality across his entire oeuvre over such an extraordinarily extended period of time, an achievement which is utterly unmatched by any other artist or performer working in any genre in the last 100+ years.   This isn't how I view Mike's career. For me, the first four are easily the greatest music he ever made, and everything since has either frustrated me or appalled me, to varying degrees (except Moonlight Shadow which is sublime). For consistency of quality over an extended period of time, I look elsewhere. Jules The reality is quite the opposite.  Tubular Bells 2 (and 3) are infinitely superior to Tubular Bells.  The first one is like the work of an (obviously brilliant) precocious child, whereas the sequels are the work of the fully matured, true master of his art.  Tr3s Lunas (including the Tr3s Lunas II/Maestro bootleg) and Light + Shade contain many of his most sublime compositions and remain two of the finest albums of the 2000s decade.  Return to Ommadawn - recorded 45 years into his career - is not only among his best work, it is the finest album by anyone, any genre, in the last 15 years.  Only Jarre's Equinoxe Infinity compares, and even then it pales in comparison. The only inferior music he has ever made is Man on the Rocks (very awful), and portions of Earth Moving and Heaven's Open.  Islands is one of the greatest 80s albums by anyone.   Of course the first 4 albums are magnificent, but it was what came after that truly stands out.  Taurus II is his overall finest composition and recording, and the single greatest piece of music from the decade of the 1980s.  Amarok is a work of utter genius.  The Millennium Bell is extraordinary, breathtaking, moving and inspiring.  Voyager is a masterpiece.  Crises has a couple of duds but overall is superb.  Guitars has a couple of forgettable moments but overall is excellent. The body of work of Mr Oldfield is by far, easily, the greatest (publicly known) collection of original music by any artist since Tchaikovsky.  He leaves even the great Jean Michel Jarre firmly in the shade.  There is no one else in the world, solo or band or collective, working in any musical genre at all, including film scores, etc. who ever comes remotely close.  The closest competitors since the release of Tubular Bells are the likes of Pink Floyd, Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, JM Jarre, Ennio Morricone, Vangelis et. al. But even when you put all of their best music together, it still doesn't start to come close to matching the vast extent and unparalleled consistent quality of Mr Oldfield's catalogue. Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: Aug. 09 2023, 05:36 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ Aug. 09 2023, 01:12) The reality is quite the opposite. Of course "the reality" here = your opinion. Just so we're absolutely clear. ;-) Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: June 2021 Posted: Aug. 10 2023, 02:38 Quote (familyjules @ Aug. 09 2023, 05:36) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ Aug. 09 2023, 01:12) The reality is quite the opposite. Of course "the reality" here = your opinion. Just so we're absolutely clear. ;-) Jules Haha, fair comment but that view is also an extreme one that doesn't hold up.  By that philosophy it means that every aesthetic estimation is 100% subjective and there is not and cannot be any objective evaluation of the aesthetic merits of any given objects or creations, so that we would have to say that Beethoven's 9th Symphony, and "Friday" by Rebecca Black or "Try that in a Small Town", were of absolutely equivalent artistic merit because any response to those respective works is purely a subjective, arbitrary, individual opinion and nothing more than that. You are going to have a terribly hard time maintaining that position, so no, I can't agree with you.  Also, spending time familiarizing oneself with an artwork or whatever, and cultivating one's appreciation or knowledge in general, can help you to make an informed and reasonable opinion.  Someone with no musical sense at all, they might even be insane, might hear "Tubular Bells" once and dismiss it as rubbish, but this opinion of course has no value. Another person with a natural gift for music aesthetics, and expansive experience of the world in general might study the same piece for some time and (correctly) conclude that it is indeed a wonderful, sublime, superior work of art. And, they would be able to articulate their reasons for coming to that conclusion.  This is in fact what music criticism is all about, after all.  But according to your logic, both of the above hypothetical opinions are equally valid; and it would be impossible to say that Tubular Bells, or Beethoven's 5th, or Fool on the Hill, or God Only Knows, were any better or worse than "I Can't Drive (55)" by Sammy Hagar, for example - an absolutely dismal tune - even though that is obviously not the case and such an argument is rather absurd. Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: Aug. 10 2023, 06:35 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ Aug. 10 2023, 02:38) Quote (familyjules @ Aug. 09 2023, 05:36) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ Aug. 09 2023, 01:12) The reality is quite the opposite. Of course "the reality" here = your opinion. Just so we're absolutely clear. ;-) Jules Haha, fair comment but that view is also an extreme one that doesn't hold up.  By that philosophy it means that every aesthetic estimation is 100% subjective and there is not and cannot be any objective evaluation of the aesthetic merits of any given objects or creations, so that we would have to say that Beethoven's 9th Symphony, and "Friday" by Rebecca Black or "Try that in a Small Town", were of absolutely equivalent artistic merit because any response to those respective works is purely a subjective, arbitrary, individual opinion and nothing more than that. You are going to have a terribly hard time maintaining that position, so no, I can't agree with you.  Also, spending time familiarizing oneself with an artwork or whatever, and cultivating one's appreciation or knowledge in general, can help you to make an informed and reasonable opinion.  Someone with no musical sense at all, they might even be insane, might hear "Tubular Bells" once and dismiss it as rubbish, but this opinion of course has no value. Another person with a natural gift for music aesthetics, and expansive experience of the world in general might study the same piece for some time and (correctly) conclude that it is indeed a wonderful, sublime, superior work of art. And, they would be able to articulate their reasons for coming to that conclusion.  This is in fact what music criticism is all about, after all.  But according to your logic, both of the above hypothetical opinions are equally valid; and it would be impossible to say that Tubular Bells, or Beethoven's 5th, or Fool on the Hill, or God Only Knows, were any better or worse than "I Can't Drive (55)" by Sammy Hagar, for example - an absolutely dismal tune - even though that is obviously not the case and such an argument is rather absurd. ...in your opinion. :-D Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

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