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Topic: Guidelines for good MO music< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
TheLake Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 05:06

OK everyone, this is my first contribution to this forum, but I have been following it for a long time now. Lately the user TheMan has been making a series of statements concerning Mike's current style, and I simply feel that I to 100% shares his views.  To me there is too little critical discussions abouts Mike's music in these forums.

Mike has certainly produced all too simple music on his last five albums. The parts are not anymore related, often there is just a very simple melody repeated over a very simple background and a drum machine. A lot of (younger? ) fans seem to defend this, but they forget that this kind of music can be found almost everywhere, it is mainstream instrumental music, meaningless music. Hard words, of course. There are some exceptions of course, but the trend is clear: Mike is not anymore producing art, he has become an entertainer. I my opinion there are already too many such around, the world needs the OLDfield back.

I repeat those guidelines presented elsewhere in this forum, plus some additional ones, that I very much feel are the ground for a truly genious Mike Oldfield album. I agree with those who think it doesn't matter what kind of sound Mike uses as long as he doesn't abandon the complexity.

  1. Develop the melodies, and reuse them in various ways (example; The Lake! ).
  2. Use transitions, let the music flow (like on Discovery, The Songs of Distant Earth).
  3. Write real endings, no fadings like on TresLunas. (example: The Lake ).
  4. Give the recording some time to mature, do not release it too fast. The overall playing was on a higher level on earlier records. (example; Taurus III versus anything from Guitars).
  5. Write polyphonic music, or at least, make backgrounds more elaborate than on the later albums. (Good examples: the backgrounds on Taurus III, Ascension, Amarok, Return To The Origin).
  6. A lot of guitar solos of course!
  7. Forget vocals, it is only annoying.
  8. Use a good baas player like Phil Spalding. It adds very much to the music.
  9. Use some other musicians as well, that always added to the quality. (Prime example: Simon Phillips! ).
 10. Not all themes have to be catchy! Mike has proven that he is the master of finding rather odd but distinct melodies; why not develop his orientalic side, and maybe collaborate with such musicians.

Let there be a discussion about this. My guess is that most of us are Mike fans primarly because his more complex way of writing the music, and the reason I write this message is that I hope that I can influence Mike to 'return to the origin'.
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 06:02

I agree with all of your points. I like many of Mike's songs, but what he does best is making instrumentals. One key point is use the guitar! He is the best guitarist I have ever heard, but his keyboarding isn't quite so good. Use the guitar for the main tune, using keyboards for either background stuff, or tunes such as the Tubular Bells theme. (Or get Rick Wakeman to play the hot keyboard solos which I love!;)

I agree that Mike's music is at its best when it has lots of detain, lots of stuff in the background. Pieces like Amarok, Tubular Bells II and Embers from Guitars all are very complex, and I feel that adds a lot to what would be an otherwise boring song.

And yes, I love The Lake too!
:D


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Thank-you for helping us help you help us all.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 07:07

Well well, TheLake shares my opinions to 100 percentage .. !

 It will not come as a surprise that I completely agree his message. And I also agree with raven4x4x about Rick Wakemen.

More details Mike, and just stick to the recipe above and there will be ART! (And as I said in the forum about TB2003, if you need commercial success, just put some piano in the beginning and a bell in the end and call the whole thing Tubular Bells 4. This is OK to me as long as you do NOT reuses the material on TB).

TheMan.

ps. 'The Lake' is the prime example in the art of developing themes. You have probably noticed that almost everything in this piece has its origin in that simple theme in the introduction ... even that wonderful calm guitar-part just before the final... Brilliant Mike! More of it!
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Wanderer Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 07:16

When I buy a Mike Oldfield album, I do not expect a GREAT album, I expect a GOOD album. I feel the reason that a lot of people are disappointed by Mike's current output is because they have unrealistic expectations.

The Lake claims that Mike has stopped being an "artist" and has simply become an "entertainer". I don't see anything wrong with this. When I buy an album I want for it to be enjoyable, I don't care wether or not the artist is making some kind of "statement".  I don't think Mike has to produce a long, pretentious "high concept" album for it to be good. If it sounds good to me, then I like it - I don't need for it to be "innovative", "original" or "important".

Plus, isn't this a case of comparing apples to oranges?  Comparing Mike's instrumental work to his vocal work or comparing his folky work to his electronic music like "Tres Lunas" is like comparing prose to poetry and then asserting which is better. To my mind the comparison is absurd. These are two entirely different styles of music - they should be judged as successes or failures by the standards of the genre they belong too. It doesn't make any sense to compare "Discovery" to "Tres Lunas"...they are two entirely different styles of music....APPLES AND ORANGES! How can you compare APPLES to friggin' ORANGES!

I actually prefer the stripped down approach of albums like "Guitars" to most of his seventies work. I think Mike is concentrating more on producing solid melodies instead of being complicated for the sake of being complicated. I'll take the raw, simple guitar solo on "Cochise" over the 90-overdubbed guitar solos on "Hergest Ridge Part 2" any day of the week. But again, this is simply personal taste, apples and oranges again.

I am younger than a lot of other Mike Oldfield fans. I'm 19 years old and I do prefer a lot of his more recent stuff. I LIKE his song based albums - even "Earth Moving".  Perhaps my age is a factor in my view of his musical development. I was "converted" by his more recent stuff, like "Tubular Bells III" and "Songs Of Distant Earth". I've since managed to acquire all of his albums and have found something good in each one - with the exception of the godawful "Heaven's Open" and "Orchestral Tubular Bells".

I respect the views of those who are itching for another "great" album from Mike and I agree with some of your points, like your dislike of fade-outs (but this is a problem I have with all recorded music, not just Mike). Sorry, if sometimes us new fans sound a bit defensive, but Mike is not a big commodity anymore and that is why a lot of us are trying so hard to support him. Plus, you have to remember that there are people who just plain out actually LIKE the new styles he is experimenting with. For me that's the main appeal of Oldfield, he doesn't keep repeating himself (TB excepted) and is always trying out new things. If he kept sticking to a formula, or "guidelines" as you put it, then I wouldn't buy his music anymore. The fact that he keeps trying new things indicates to me that he hasn't simply "sold out". If he did stick to a set of guidelines with each album then I would call him an unadventurous sell out. I guess it's simply a matter of different strokes for different folks in the end.  And as long as we're all friendly about it then I'm OK.  

Live long and prosper amigos. Nice talkin'.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 07:35

Well Wanderer,

of course TheLake should talk for himself, but to me it does not seem that he is comparing vocal work to instrumental work, or comparing folky music to electronical music...

He clearly says: 'it doesn't matter what SOUND he uses' and this is also my point of view.

TheLake does not demand Mike to 'make a statement', nor does he want him to do a 'concept' album.

What it all comes down to is this: Mike should put more effort in the structure of his pieces. Surely you love Mike's ways of changing from a part to another one (to take an example)?

When I talk about 'complexity' I don't mean that Mike shall sound 'difficult', like Schoenenberg, or Arvo Paert. I regard the background to e.g., OnlyTimeWillTell as being a complex one (since there are many things going on there) and as TheLake points out: the background texture to Taurus III is really quite elaborate! Listen to it in headphones.
Don't yoy think that these examples differ very much compared to the background of, say, Millenium Bell, TopOfTheMorning, or Turtle Island?

I am NOT talking about the melodies here, OK?

But, hey, what about the melodies in the past? Do you think the Crisis theme was 'complicated for the sake of being complicated'? Or the melodies on Taurus II, The Lake? Ommadawn? To me these 'melodies' are of higest possible quality. And I feel the same about the melody on Cochise, ReturnToTheOrigin, NoMansLand, LetThereBeLight.

Mike is not better at melodies now than for 20 years ago, there is just a differens in sound and format.


TheMan


ps. Actually I think some of you don't know what (at least) I mean with complexity; To me, it is not the pure number  of instruments involved. 60 guitars playing one single melody is less complex than 2 guitars playing two different melodies.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 07:44

ps2. This thing about 'you younger fans being defensive' because you want to support Mike... That is a good thing of course, but if you think I do not support Mike ... Mike, we love you! You are a genious. I just don't like seing you chosing an all too simple solution.
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Wanderer Offline




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Posted: Aug. 22 2002, 13:32

IN REPLY TO THE MAN:

You took exception to my remarks, but here is a direct quote from The Lake's post:

"Mike is not anymore producing art, he has become an entertainer."

My point was simply that I am satisfied enough with simple "entertainment". I find it a bit snobbish to criticize someone for trying to produce music with that purpose in mind. What is wrong with being entertaining? Why do you have to have these "artistic" affectations as well? What is "artistic" anyway? What's the difference between "artist" and "entertainer" eh?

The Lake is essentially saying that Mike is not producing the type of music that he wants to hear, and that that in itself makes Mike no longer an "artiste". Or maybe he's just saying that he doesn't like the music itself. Well then, just say so, no need for such high minded terms to justify personal taste. Art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

I was generalizing when I was talking about comparisons people make - but it's true. Why compare albums like "Tres Lunas" and "Guitars" to stuff he did in the seventies and eighties? It's an entirely different genre of music - it's like comparing Eminem to Belinda Carlisle.

As for Mike using electronic production techniques and thereby being lazy...

This is personal taste once again. I dig electronic music. I like Vangelis, Jean Michel-Jarre, Deep Forest etcetera....I've dabbled a bit in it myself. I don't buy into the theory that it's just an easy way out for people who can't be bothered playing real instruments, it's actually possible to produce sounds on electronic instruments that can't be produced any other way. I think there are so many cool possibilities in electronic music that can't be achieved otherwise. I also like soundtrack music John Williams, Hans Zimmer etcetera....so "Tres Lunas" an electronic soundtrack album, was right up my alley. I was kinda saddened when Mike didn't try more soundtrack work after the brilliant "Killing Fields" so I was quite excited when I found out he was doing the soundtrack to a game.

As for the structure of his pieces, to a certain extent I agree with you. I don't like fade outs in ANY music and his longer instrumentals certainly kicked major ass! I would love to see another live album from him but unfortunately it looks like that aint' likely to happen. He is a great guitar player, and I love the full glory of his guitar solos on show! Which is why I'm so perplexed at the rather lukewarm reception that "Guitars" received. An album made entirely with Guitars, no techno dancebeats in sight, rife with killer riffs n' solos...surely this was an MO-fan-like-yourself's dream come true? "Cochise" and "Out Of Mind" have gotta have some of his best guitar solos ever, right? BLAST IT LOUD!!!!! (pauses to do his air guitar thing)

As I said, different strokes for different folks. Still, The Lake has got a winning formula down there that would translate to a killer record. But one of the things I love about Mike is his unpredictability. I don't WANT to see him bogged down in formula....another reason I'm so depressed at "TB 2003".
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: Aug. 23 2002, 05:22

I also agree, but you have to know that (and it's very hard for me to say this) Mike is been busy doing other stuff, and I think he's running out of magic.

The millenium bell was to me a commercial album (although there are some songs I like) but for the rest... and Mike said on the BBC interview that it was his favourite album.... ????? I'd like to hear him say "Gee, my favourite album is Amarok, or Five Miles Out, or even Heaven's Open" but MB??????

Tres Lunas was a bit a relief to me that he still can do it, but still he can do better than that (although Return to Origin was kicking!;)

But I still will be a determined Oldfield fan, and will still buy his albums, even if it will become crap or tick tock or something ;)

Me birthday, 18!
Let's crack the guinness!!! ;)


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-The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it-

Mike Oldfield - 1980
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 23 2002, 05:28

Hi again Wanderer,

Well, to me, doing electronic music doesn't mean to be lazy. I like synths as well, and my favourite album is TSODE (with a lot of synths! )

When I claim that Mike is lazy I mean the following:

  - Lately Mike does not put that much efforts in the backgounds. Often he simply plays some very simple standard chords on a synth and then plays some guitar over it. To me it simply sounds to much Enya... (well, not the guitar). In the past he used to put more effort on the background.

  - Surely you agree that the drums on TresLunas are very very straightforward and default? I could easily programm a drum machine to sound like that, anyone can do it. It is simply not the high level usually found on MO records. I have nothing against drum machines (like I said, TSODE! ) but they should be programmed with care, not just this rythm 1A.

  - I hate all kind of fading. In general. I don't care if Bryan Adams fades away, I don't like him. But when TheMasterOfEndings do it almost always nowadays, it takes away a dimension from the music. Mike is a genious, he will always be, and if he wants to, he can write good endings. So, to me, it looks like Mike simply is lazy about it.

    ***
 
By the way?  Why is anyone who likes complex music pretentious? It is not theory for me, it is real!

   - I like Zidane better than any defense player in the world; Simply because Zidane stands out and does incredible things whereas the defenders kick the ball out to the audience. Am I pretentious then?

   - If I could chose between a brand new Mercedes and an 20 years old Volvo I would take the Mercedes. It is a more advanced car, safer, better in all respects.

   - When I go to the dentist I would prefer a brilliant one to a mediocre one.

   - When I listen to music I want it to be something special, something that is unique in some sence, not something mainstream, not something that can be repruduced by many others. This is why I started to listen to Mike Oldfield, because I felt that 'TheLake', 'Taurus I-III' and 'TheWindChimes' were very remarkable pieces full of unique features. This is also why I love Bach, because his music is heavy-loaded with A LOT of details. This is also why I hate the music of Bryan Adams, Springsteen, and those mainstream rock/pop-stars; they are the pretentios ones, constantly sticking to a standard recipe 'vocal,keyboard, bass, drum,guitar, 5-minutes'. It would be deeply unfortunate if Mike wastes his great talant and turns into one of those 'trying-to-please-everyone'-entertainers.

Let's face it: if you want to attract a large audience you need to write simple direct cathy one-dimension music. And that kind of music will age very fast. After a few listenings there is nothing more to discover. In my opinion this is the case with much on TresLunas (like the title track), compared to, say TheWindChimes.

Let me emphasize that I have nothing against drum machines or synths!

TheMan
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 23 2002, 05:35

Blue Dolphin,

I agree with you to a large degree.

 And yes, I will stay as a fan, Mike deserves it whatever he does in the future.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2002, 15:59

Firstly, I should say where I'm coming from. I'm not a fan of Mike's because of his complex compositional style. That's not to say that I don't like it, far from it in fact, but what attracted me to his music was something a bit deeper - the fact that he was producing music that I felt I could connect to in some way.
Now, some of his recent work I would certainly say has been without the certain something that his earlier works had, but for me it's not because of any lack of complexity, but rather the sentiments behind the music. Tubular Bells II, for example, I find rather calculated and less intriguing than the original, which was filled with odd sounds and themes. But at the same time, I can like Tubular Bells II for half of the reasons I find it less appealing.

In Tres Lunas, I find a little more trace of that elusive spark than in The Millennium Bell...it may not be much, and it's certainly not an album that's going to set the world alight, but I hear a little something there which suggests that all is not over yet...

I think that it all depends on Mike's creative energy levels, and as he gets older, they may well start to drop (not necessarily because of age, but because inspiration starts to get thinner on the ground the more albums he releases).
I do marvel at the attention to detail in Amarok, for example, but at the same time, when I listen to that album, I realise the amount of energy that it must have taken to produce it - I think that's what makes it special, the fact that it's probably the sort of thing you only see once in a lifetime...

I don't personally feel that the music has to be complex. If it's good music, it's good music, and good music can be found at all levels, from works played on a single instrument comprising just one or two parts (like some of the music that Bach wrote for solo cello - there aren't hundreds of different melodies in there, but I think it's good music. Some of Fransicso Tárrega's works for solo guitar as well...and much more...) to huge intricate works orchestrated on ridiculous numbers of instruments.

What Mike presents on Tres Lunas is simple music - he's said himself that he enjoys making simple tracks. I'm certain that if Mike wanted to put more parts in there, he could (I could sit down and knock out a counter melody to those pieces without giving much thought to it, for example, and I'm sure that Mike could do the same, especially seeing as he'd have a better feel for the pieces, being the one who wrote them)...but it would detract from the simplicity, whch he doesn't want to do for one reason or another (perhaps a desire to keep things minimal, or perhaps just because it takes less effort, as many would believe).

But, does complexity make art? I'd say art was more about making a statement - the way that statement is put across, and the quality of the execution, is what separates the good art from bad. How about comparing the geometric forms that Piet Mondrian is famous for, to the more intricately detailed work of, say, Leonardo da Vinci. Does the fact that Leonardo painted more detail make him more of an artist (though it should be borne in mind that not all of Mondrian's work was of the coloured rectangle variety)?
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Horse Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2002, 03:32

Hmmm...
Songs of Distant Earth wasn't complex. Yet it works so much better than Tres Lunas. Why? Because it has been well produced. Seen from my eyes, Millennium Bell and Tres Lunas are not much more than demo productions.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2002, 03:48

Well Horse,

TSODE was not complex right in your face, but there are certainly very elaborate textures on it. Listen to it carefully and all those background details are there. But you are certainly right about that TSODE was well-produced.

Korgscrew has certainly worthwhile comments and to a large degree I have to give him right. I don't share his opinion about the degree of complexity we want, but then again, how should complexity be defined? The Bach solo suites for cello are not complex in the Amarok  sense. But they are certainly very complex in a different way (which is almost completely lacking in Mike's music on the last 3 albums); each track in the solo suites are 'built' upon highly related material, and in a fashion far from being obvious. There are so many fragments that are related and have its origin in some central theme. A good example is Suite no. 5. It is kind of like with 'TheLake' on Discovery; thematically almost all of it is variations on the simple theme in the beginning.

I would like to hear more of that on Mikes albums; I love Incantations for this, if you really pay attention, you will discover many interesting relationships between (in the sound very different) parts ... there are much more to discover than the obvious ones like that long chord sequence reappearing over and over again. My guess is that Mike sometimes doesn't even know himself that his melodies and ideas are so related as they are (like on Incantations); he probably just does the music, it comes natural to him, he just downloads it from Music Heaven (well perhaps not always, like with TopOfTheMorning or TheMilleniumBell which probably origin from McDonalds Music Land, or maybe even Music Hell)

I agree that something deeper is different with Mike's music nowadays, and I further agree that TL is a step in the right direction but still not entirely satisfactory. To me, tracks 2 and 3 have the distinct MO feeling, whereas the rest of it is more questionable.

According to some fans, there are much great TresLunas material, however not on the actual album... I wish! I hope Mike listen to us and gives us what we want; true distinct MO music.

Most of all, I wish a 60 min long instrumental, NOT being related to TubularBells.
 




What is art? I don't know.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2002, 14:42

Indeed - the Bach cello suites work with complexity in structure rather than complexity in arrangement...I latched onto the textural complexity aspect because it seemed to be more what was being talked of here.

But still, I don't demand complexity from Mike...I don't demand anything from Mike, in fact - if I want something that he's not doing, I'll look for it elsewhere, or create it myself. I think it's more fun that way. He can do what he wants as far as I'm concerned and at the end of the day, I'll still take a listen to what he's done, even if I end up thinking that it might have been nice if he'd done things differently...

I think that art may well be the same as entertainment, in a more intellectual wrapper.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2002, 23:13

I think a lot of stuff this side of TBII has been to much beat orriented and the stuff that hasn't been beat orriented for the main part  hasn't been particularly interesting. TSODE worked well as an album and contained some lovely music and textures but it goes rapidly down hill from there IMHO. 'Voyager' contained 'Mont StMichel which worked well and for me is the only highlight of what I consider Mike's weakest hour. For me part of the problem with the tracks on albums like 'Guitars' and 'Voyager' (especially 'Guitars' ) is that they contain some good music it's just not very well arranged. Anybody who has heard how much better some of those tracks sounded live will know this. They were way more dynamic. Personally I was very disapointed with 'Guitars' as an album. 'Summit Day' and 'Four Winds' hinted at past greatness but the rest just seemed flat. 'Summit Day' is a great example of Mike coming up with a brilliant set of melodies but not actually doing enough with them. Live of course it was a different matter the track soared as did 'Embers' and others, they were way more dynamic.

When I first heard that Mike was doing an entirely guitar based album I was delighted, 'at last' I thought. Have any of you out there seen the 'Essential MO' video? At the start there's the bit in his studio where he's improvising a little melody on the guitar and its absalutely beautifull (simmilarly at the end of the 'Elements video'. I would truely love to see him do an album of music that sounded like that. Actually Simon Heyworth says a similar thing in the 'Making of TB' book.
I thought 'Guitars' was going to be this and it wasn't. It was just another album of mostly unremarkable music following on from where 'Voyager' left off.
At the end of the day I would just like Mike to turn off those synth drum pads and do something less percussive and much, much less sequenced. The wonderfull colourfull atmospheres of Mike's music really have been lacking in the last decade. TL hinted at them still being there. He wrote some great music for the project but again there seemed to be little imagination put into the arrangement of what was finally released. Indeed I thought some of the fan mixes and arrangements were considerably more inventive than what was on the finished album. Which I find slightly worrying in a strange way. If you got all the music from the game and album and put it all out on a table you would see before you a lot of great music. If you then said 'right lets take the best bits and arrange them into a gently shifting 1 hour collage of music (not unlike TSODE was arranged) with all the develping themes and interesting textures you would have an album way, way better than TL. So why wasn't this done? Again there seems to be either laziness (unlikely) or just plain bad decision making from either Mike or someone (the record company) who has influence over him. I just wish his music in any form would go back to being as effortlessly interesting as it used to be. A lot of stuff recently seems so churned out and contrived to appeal to a certain audience that aren't listening anyway.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 30 2002, 04:47

Well, you know, TOBY,

it probably won't come as a surprise to the participants of this forum that I very much agree with you. And I think it is important that there are fans expressing those opinions; this forum is not just a way of having fun, but also a way of (perhaps) reaching Mike. My guess is that he from time-to-time reads it. If we just supports him regardless of what he produces (for the sake of being a 'true fan' ) he might put even less effort in the future works.

You took Guitars as an example, and I very much agree. Apart from Cochice, SummitDay (yes it should have been developed more) and the 'orientalic' part of (the otherwise extremely poor) FourWinds, this album was one of the worst albums ever to me (MY OPINION). Three reasons;

   1. The guitar playing sounds kind of sloppy and hastly produced, compared to all those great MO solos on so many other records.

   2. The thematic ideas are very very poor.

   3. The album is poorly produced.

As an example I take OutOfSight. I like heavy guitars (I like e.g., Dream Theater and Deep Purple) so in principle I would love to hear Mike play heavy stuff from time to time ... but it sounds like when I play! It simply sounds cheap, unfocused! What is this suppose to mean Mike? Compare this track to the heavy live guitar on e.g., Platinum final and you will understand what I am talking about. Mike can easily do MUCH BETTER, but why he isn't is an enigma.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 30 2002, 17:01

I'd take Out of Mind as my example, actually. I think the distorted guitars playing the power chords on that sound horrid - it's the most fizzy, thin sound, of the kind that might come out of a cheap effects processor (though sadly I know it's coming from something far more expensive). I think that impacts on the playing - I can't speak for Mike, but for me, if the sound's not right, the playing won't be either, because the way the instrument sounds is affecting the way I play it. I'd usually play through an amplifier, rather than going direct into the desk, for this reason - it feels different (I also prefer the sound, for most of what I do). I would say that it's a lot harder to play convincing heavy guitar without a convincing heavy sound (though anyone who's heard me play Metallica riffs on classical guitar is free to tell me I'm wrong on this point ;) ), and I'd say that feeling the vibrations coming off a guitar amp turned up to 11 are important in getting the feel (being stood amongst a group of the best rock musicians that can be found will also help, but is optional...).

Perhaps Mike just doesn't have quite the right feelings inside him to be able to play really wild parts consistently, or maybe he's in the wrong frame of mind when he goes into the studio (and perhaps the atmosphere in there is wrong).
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Thea Cochrane Offline




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Posted: Aug. 31 2002, 10:42

I'm sorry, but I feel that the label of "not enough production" is one that cannot be applied to Mike's recent output. If anything, the production is very clean and well thought out and all the right instruments are in the right places at the right times. Perhaps things lately have been overproduced, if anything, although that is characteristic of nearly all music these days. I think that it is the composition aspects if anything that has been lacking a little lately. What I like about Mike's stuff is the intricacies - where several instruments playing different tunes fit together. The bit in Sirius where the voices in harmony in the left and right sides of the mix sends shivers up my spine. So he can still do that.

I also disagree that we are in Mike's weakest creative phase, I think that was around QE2 - The Killing Fields. And I find long solos boring too - keyboard or guitar, but especially keyboard.

Perhaps the best thing for Mike would be some kind of collaboration - not with a big name artist such as Rick Wakeman or some superstar guitarist - but someone who he could respect a little and bounce ideas off. Simon Phillips did well in this role, but he is now in such demand as a session drummer that he might not have the time or the inclination (I understand that Mike can be difficult to work with).
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tubularbills Offline




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Posted: Aug. 31 2002, 11:49

TheLake,

I like what your "qualifications" are for a good MO album, but i think if i was to add just one thing, it would be the occasional great piano solo. For example, "Top of the Morning" is such an awesome part in TB3.

Not only is a great piano piece like that occasionally necessary for a grreat album, it's also nice to learn how to play for ones' self.

I can always grab people's attention with that song whenever i play it on the piano. granted they don't know what the name of it is or who it's by, but that's all right.


--------------
Terrible, Wonderful, Crazy, Perfect.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 31 2002, 16:17

It all depends on how you define 'over produced' or 'under produced'. Obviously with a studio as expensive and technically equiped as Mike's all his albums are going to sound technically perfect. But that doesn't necessarily mean the production is going to sound 'interesting'. I completely disagree about all Mike's recent stuff being perfectly arranged. To often I find myself trying to listen to stuff he's missed out. Why doesn't 'Viper' build further at the end instead of dropping off just as its beginning to soar? Why does 'Firefly' sound like a backing track for something that could be so  much more? I could go on especially with 'Guitars'.
I to love Mike's attention to detail but it has been massively lacking recently. Agreed tracks like 'Sirius' have it and a handfull of others do to but for me these tracks have been in the minority which is unfortunate. I really wish Mike would open up and collaborate with a producer who would be sympathetic to his style and understand where he is comming from. Trevor Horn was not this by any stretch of the imagination. I often think someone like Daniel Lanois who did a work of genius on Peter Gabriels 'Us' album. ( a great example of what can be done in the studio to make an album sound amazingly dynamic). I would love to hear what Mike Oldfield filtered through someone like this would sound like. Probably very intersting.
I'm not sure I have any particular take on whether or not this is the worst creative phase of his cereer. For me stuff in the last decade has certainly been less engaging and he certainly hasn't crafted anything as musically perfect as say 'Moonlight Shadow'.
Its had its moments I'll put it like that.
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