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MVR Superstar Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: Oct. 2008 Posted: Nov. 05 2008, 12:37 I was wondering, how many birds are there in bird cavern, I can only find five but the book in the library shows six, but there are some pointers showing that there are only 5 ( like the music loop stops after you release 5). and after you've released them, what do they do? Next question. What are "avatar pens" for? and why is there one in the middle of the lake in terrain? Also, just to point out, quite often in maestro you see a picture of the space ship from tres lunas. for example, reflected in the metallic statues, and on the floor in some parts of the space ship. And why is greek seen everywhere in music vr? There is that gamma delta and then some other leter i cant recognise twice, i think uphsilon. and then ther is the writing on the bird cavern blue shield. It's greek but upside down, i've got a picture flipped but i dont know how to post it. also the gamma delta (something) (something) is in tres lunas on the space ship, and who knows where else. ps I cant translate the blue shield, i dont know greek but i'm using websites too try and understand. -------------- "Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 05 2008, 18:10 Quote (MVR Superstar @ Nov. 05 2008, 12:37) I was wondering, how many birds are there in bird cavern, I can only find five but the book in the library shows six, but there are some pointers showing that there are only 5 ( like the music loop stops after you release 5). and after you've released them, what do they do? Next question. What are "avatar pens" for? and why is there one in the middle of the lake in terrain? Also, just to point out, quite often in maestro you see a picture of the space ship from tres lunas. for example, reflected in the metallic statues, and on the floor in some parts of the space ship. And why is greek seen everywhere in music vr? There is that gamma delta and then some other leter i cant recognise twice, i think uphsilon. and then ther is the writing on the bird cavern blue shield. It's greek but upside down, i've got a picture flipped but i dont know how to post it. also the gamma delta (something) (something) is in tres lunas on the space ship, and who knows where else. ps I cant translate the blue shield, i dont know greek but i'm using websites too try and understand. These are good questions. I've completed the 24 medal quest and the gravitar quest, but I didn't even know you could release the birds in the bird cavern! As for the question about the Greek letters: I asked that myself, some time ago. No one on the forum knows. Maybe Korgscrew could ask Mike the next time he speaks with him! Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Nov. 06 2008, 16:21 Avatar pens - not really sure but maybe to park an avatar after you've finished flying it so others can find it easily? Birds - yep, just the 5. After release they fly off, dunno where. I think it might change the state of the cavern. There have been times on line when we've been in the same place but couldn't see each other. Stuff like being able to see the 2 flying carpet avatars under the statures hands etc. Greek writing - there has been discussion before and as far asd I know it's just characters that Mike liked the look of for aesthetic reasons. -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Nov. 08 2008, 09:34 Quote (olracUK @ Nov. 06 2008, 21:21) Birds - yep, just the 5. After release they fly off, dunno where. I think it might change the state of the cavern. There have been times on line when we've been in the same place but couldn't see each other. Stuff like being able to see the 2 flying carpet avatars under the statures hands etc. Do you remember those online games that often crashed whenever the person hosting the game released all 5 birds, Andy? I'm not suggesting that crashing the game was part of the purpose of freeing the birds (!! ), but it's a good indication that something important was happening to the 'state' of things at that moment, as you suggest. I think there's a lot about the bird cavern that I've never really got to the bottom of - like exactly what conditions make the carpets appear, under what conditions the lamp appears by the treasure chest in the pool, and so on. Back to top

MVR Superstar Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: Oct. 2008 Posted: Nov. 09 2008, 07:00 very confusing. I've got some pictures, but i'm still learning the ropes of how to post them. baybe soon. -------------- "Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Nov. 09 2008, 20:59 OK - after some brief research here's my opinions of the Bird Cavern. in many games when you arrive in a certain area what you see is determined by the actions/path you took to get there. So although you see the same basic area, it can be subtly different. This is usually called "instancing". Just as easy to think of it as parallel worlds. I've 4 ways to eneter the cavern, and what you see is generally the same, but a lttle different each time. 4medal pedestal Get 4 medals and enter the pedestal in the shield room. Enter the tubes to collect lots of bells. Music on, access to the secret exit available (find strange graphics in green space). Once all bells found enter bird cavern. Key available, music on, no carpets to see. After Birds released, medal to be found. Can't return to bell caves. Via Pink/Green tube (spring colours) From start, go through the tube coloured pink/green  in the central hall. Past the green things and arrive in the Bird Cavern at the ship. Pretty much same as arriving via Bell game. Shield From start, follow the bell. Enter via shield straight to Bird cave. Carpets to be seen, but no music and can't release birds. Can return to bell cave, but no fog and no bells. From castle area, 4th portal from left Enter the castle area via the hat in central area, large portal in Bird cave or the tube. -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

MVR Superstar Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: Oct. 2008 Posted: Nov. 10 2008, 12:03 P.s the Greek writting seen on the space ship and things id gamma delta theta theta -------------- "Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 10 2008, 16:55 I don't play Maestro (I'm not really able to get around it), but I know that the gamma-delta-theta-theta sequence also appears in several places in Tr3s Lunas. Evidently those letters have a special significance for Mike, although I have no idea of what it may be... -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 10 2008, 18:20 Olrac, there's a fifth, unofficial way to get into the bird cavern. (I discussed this with Alan D some time; he'll back me up, if he's reading this.) You can pass through the walls of the tubular bells cavern at one point, and then find yourself in a kind of primitive version of the bird cavern - and you can't leave it! A similar, "no way out" situation seems to happen when you pass through through the tube to the world where the galaxies and atomium are: if you have insufficient medals to enter the portal, you can't retrace your steps (or, at least, I've been unable to find a way to do so). Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 10 2008, 18:24 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 10 2008, 16:55) I don't play Maestro (I'm not really able to get around it), but I know that the gamma-delta-theta-theta sequence also appears in several places in Tr3s Lunas. Evidently those letters have a special significance for Mike, although I have no idea of what it may be... On the other hand, Ugo, as someone pointed out Mike tends to use nonsense words to great effect (eg in "Celt" and the "Taurus 2" chant); perhaps that's what's happening here. Still, it's amusing to invent meanings for them. If you transliterate the letters into English you get G D Th Th. An obvious way of filling out the first two letters is to add an "o", giving "God". If you do the same for the next two letters you get "Thoth", which was an Egyptian deity. Faces in the carpet; you can read in what you like.... Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Nov. 10 2008, 19:54 Nightspore - if you are refering to edging past through the gap next to the stained glass window in the bell tunnel, to enter the green "outside", yep you can enter the bird cave that way. But I always seemed to leave as usual once back inside the bird cavern. Oh - we have no spoiler tags here so I can't hide this. Some fun things to find in that green outside area. *cough* snake/lightening/gull -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 11 2008, 08:07 Quote (nightspore @ Nov. 11 2008, 00:24) On the other hand, Ugo, as someone pointed out Mike tends to use nonsense words to great effect (eg in "Celt" and the "Taurus 2" chant); perhaps that's what's happening here. Going off-topic here, but nevermind. Mike's nonsense words in chants (wherever he used them) were, I think, not really invented but carefully chosen because of their sound. For example, in Taurus 2 Mike evidently needed a sequence which had the sound of rounded, very open vowels, and so he came up with "Sana, rosana, daloo bee rawana..." Sounds like Rafiki in Disney's Lion King. About the Greek letters: in my own view of them, the wordplay is rather on their shape than on their (transliterated) meaning. The way they are written in 3L (especially on the Celtic cross near the river in the forest) they look very like "Gaff" to me. And Gaff is, of course, a character from Blade Runner. Or maybe Mike is using these as just a decoration - they've been chosen just because of their fancy shapes, with no intended meaning whatsoever. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 11 2008, 18:31 Ugo, has Mike ever expressed any interest in Blade Runner? A "gaff" is, of course, also slang word meaning a "mistake". Thoth, incidentally, was the Egyptian god of speech, wisdom, and magic; all you need to get the word in Maestro is to add the "o" (of "Oldfield")... Perhaps I've read too much James Joyce...   Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 11 2008, 19:57 Quote (nightspore @ Nov. 12 2008, 00:31) Ugo, has Mike ever expressed any interest in Blade Runner? A "gaff" is, of course, also slang word meaning a "mistake". Well, I used to think that a mistake (a blooper) was a gaffe, not a "gaff". Also, about BR, sure, Mike never talked about it. But who tells us that Nick (Neek?) Catcheside isn't a BR fan? As far as I know, he's he one that's responsible for most of the design of Tr3s Lunas, and Maestro. Anyway, as I repeat, I have no idea about where and how does the graphic motif occur in Maestro, as I've never played it (I was talking about its occurences in 3L). But if it does occur in there, it's obviously something that Mike and/or Mr. Catcheside are fond of. EDIT: If there's anyone here who's read too much James Joyce, that's me. My university degree thesis was a line-by-line analysis of all the references in Ulysses. However, I can't really spot your Joyce reference above here... -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 12 2008, 02:29 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 11 2008, 19:57) EDIT: If there's anyone here who's read too much James Joyce, that's me. My university degree thesis was a line-by-line analysis of all the references in Ulysses. However, I can't really spot your Joyce reference above here... Hi Ugo, I was referring to the kind of detailed analysis that study of Joyce requires. References to *what* in Ulysses did you study? You should give Maestro a go - it's fun. I actually prefer it to Tr3s Lunas. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 12 2008, 09:03 Well, if you've happened to read Ulysses, you may know that it has an extra-textual reference (i.e. an allusion to something that's not contained within Ulysses, but within an entirely different context) virtually every two-three lines. My thesis was a detailed analysis of all the allusions. I don't play Maestro because I find it very complex, and because the exploration of the Maestro world is not as satisfying, to me, as the exploration of the Tr3s Lunas world (inside vs. outside). However, if I ever happen to get into a collective game sooner or later, I shall surely have a go. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Nov. 12 2008, 12:32 Quote (olracUK @ Nov. 10 2008, 01:59) OK - after some brief research here's my opinions of the Bird Cavern. in many games when you arrive in a certain area what you see is determined by the actions/path you took to get there. So although you see the same basic area, it can be subtly different. This is usually called "instancing". Just as easy to think of it as parallel worlds. I've 4 ways to eneter the cavern, and what you see is generally the same, but a lttle different each time. 4medal pedestal Get 4 medals and enter the pedestal in the shield room. Enter the tubes to collect lots of bells. Music on, access to the secret exit available (find strange graphics in green space). Once all bells found enter bird cavern. Key available, music on, no carpets to see. After Birds released, medal to be found. Can't return to bell caves. Via Pink/Green tube (spring colours) From start, go through the tube coloured pink/green  in the central hall. Past the green things and arrive in the Bird Cavern at the ship. Pretty much same as arriving via Bell game. Shield From start, follow the bell. Enter via shield straight to Bird cave. Carpets to be seen, but no music and can't release birds. Can return to bell cave, but no fog and no bells. From castle area, 4th portal from left Enter the castle area via the hat in central area, large portal in Bird cave or the tube. Andy, why not put this into the thread for 'exploring worlds' in the guide? I mean this thread:here. I've listed 'Bird Cavern' next in the sequence, after Terrain, so if you just edit your post a bit and add it to the end of that thread, it provides a useful start. We can always tidy things up later, once we get all the information in. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Nov. 12 2008, 15:29 You are looking for more of a fish than a bird. A "gaff" is used to pull fish out of the water. Also look for rectangular silver foiled objects with a red "V" on them and collect them. Now your 2/3 of the way home. I'll give you one cheat code, "guilty". But I wont say where to use it. Have fun! Jimbo -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 12 2008, 20:49 Quote (Ugo @ Nov. 12 2008, 09:03) Well, if you've happened to read Ulysses, you may know that it has an extra-textual reference (i.e. an allusion to something that's not contained within Ulysses, but within an entirely different context) virtually every two-three lines. My thesis was a detailed analysis of all the allusions. Ulysses is a text that make one question what the word "read" means in the first place. It certainly doesn't have "an" extra-textual reference, but a myriad of them. Entire journals have been and are devoted to exploring the work; it's hardly possible for one person to explore "all" the allusions! Mike's virtual worlds are Joycean, in that while they don't have the complexity of Ulysses or Finnegans Wake, they merit very close attention to detail, as aspects in one area frequently bounce off aspects in a completely unexpected one. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 13 2008, 19:19 Quote (nightspore @ Nov. 13 2008, 02:49) [...]It certainly doesn't have "an" extra-textual reference, but a myriad of them. Entire journals have been and are devoted to exploring the work; it's hardly possible for one person to explore "all" the allusions! Sorry for insisting on this, but I fear I've been slightly misunderstood. In my post above, I said that Ulysses has an extra-textual reference every two or three lines, so of course the whole book is littered with them. And, believe it or not, the 560+ pages of my degree thesis (I think that's almost as long as the novel itself, if not longer) were mostly devoted to a detailed examination of all the references. And I was not the first one who did such a thing. I agree about 3L being slightly FinnegansWake-ish in that most of it is very much interconnected, just as the chapters (?) of Joyce's massive final novel are. I can't say anything like that about Maestro, of course, as I'm not familiar with it. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

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