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Topic: In defence of Mike's work from 1992-2002< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Wanderer Offline




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Posted: Oct. 20 2002, 21:05

Looking over this forum in the early hours of the morning I have come to the conclusion that no other period in Mike's ouvere seems to be as controversial - or, to put it another way, divide his fans - as much as his period with Warner records.

To many fans the Warner era is Mike finally "selling out" to the big bad record industry and trying to produce more "commercial" albums. Here are the most common criticisms that point to this conclusions:

1. Sequelizing his first great masterwork to re-enter the charts, and then promising to remake it from the ground up in order to cash in on the nostalgia of it's 30th anniversary.

2. Mike is using sequencers, drum machines and synthesizers, meaning that his albums can be produced quickly and cheaper than if he did things the old way - playing it all by hand and doing it with REAL instruments. Mike's use of electronic production techniques has supposedly lent a cold and clinical quality to his music.

I concede that these people have a valid point about the "Tubular Bells" sequels/remakes. Mike really should let that go now and push on with other endeavours. Still, the fact remains that this is the only album of his that has really entered the popular conciousness - you say Mike Oldfield's name to your musically uneducated friend and he'll go "Yeah, the Tubular Bells guy". That's if it rings any Bells at all.

I personally disagree with the idea that just because music is produced electronically it must therefore be cold and emotionless. Nor do I subscribe to the theory that synthesizers are an easy way out for lazy people who can't be bothered playing an instrument for real. It is possible to produce sounds with electronic instruments that are totally unique and I think Mike uses them simply because you can't get most of the synth-sounds on his albums any other way. Mike using synthesizers isn't a question of him being "lazy", if anything I think it's an indication of him trying to broaden his range of possible sounds. Plus, people who criticize him for his use of electronic production techniques and instruments seem to forget that he's been using synthesizers ever since the "Incantations" days. This is nothing new.

The thing that I love about the Warner albums are their eclecticism. No two are alike in style and each has their own individual theme and atmosphere. Even the two "Tubular Bells" sequels released under the Warner label are vastly different in style and content. "Tubular Bells II" has a very festive, upbeat feel to it and is really structured as two long instrumentals (though it's broken into individual tracks for the convenience of the listener, the movements flow together). "Tubular Bells III" is darker and more fragmented, the different styles (techno, flamenco, heavy metal, pop, classical) clash dramatically (and furiously in the thundering finale "Far Above The Clouds").

Mike's greatest strengths as an artist I think are his unpredictability and versatility. I think the Warner years really drive that point home like no other. He'll do a trippy science fiction concept album and then follow it up with a recording of celtic folk standards. He'll go for a stripped down, back to basics, all-guitar album and then follow it up with an elaborate "history of the earth" album featuring gospel choirs, symphony orchestras and a kickass laser light show.

The music itself I've found generally entertaining. "Tubular Bells II" took the original and effectively smoothed over some of it's more annoying rough edges (bass guitar in tune! yes!;). Whilst "The Songs Of Distant Earth" is a beautiful album that features some of Oldfield's most haunting guitar solos ever. The Gregorian Chant segments fit well into the context of the album itself - and the scenes they represent from Arthur C. Clarke's novel. I guess the one weakness with this album is that you can never hope to fully understand it until you've read the book.

"Voyager" admittedly was a very paedestrian release from Oldfield. Yeah, he had it in him to do better than what was, for the most part, a covers album. Still it's a pleasant enough diversion and I've always liked the traditional tunes featured on the album. I found it interesting to hear Mike's own unique interpretation of these pieces - especially "Song Of The Sun".

"TB III" is really less of a sequel than a "sidequal". It takes a few basic ideas from "TB" and uses them as a springboard for a totally different kind of sound. The "TB" name means it suffers from comparisons with the others - but it still contains some kickass guitar tracks and what may be the most totally corkin' conclusion to an Oldfield album ever ("Far Above The Clouds" - check out some of the fan polls, it ranks high in the "best ending" lists).

I for one like the stripped down simplicity of "Guitars". No grandiose concepts, no epic-length instrumentals... just Mike doing what he does best, whipping out some solid melodies on the guitar, ranging from mellow ("Muse", "Enigmatism") to maddening ("Out Of Sight", "Out Of Mind"). Why this album isn't more highly esteemed in fan circles I don't know, since many have criticised his more recent work for sounding overproduced.

"The Millennium Bell" is monumentally pretentious however. Even Rick Wakeman wouldn't try to take on a concept this grandiloquent. No one could do justice to the last 2000 years in 45 minutes.... twas folly even to attempt it. Mike's "Heaven's Gate"? Yeah, probably. Still, if you can forget about the album's purported concepts for a while there is some good music here. "Lake Constance" and "Broad Sunlit Uplands" for example, represent some of Mike's best work with orchestras.

"Tres Lunas" also is one of the lesser entries in the Mike canon. However, the music was designed as the soundtrack to a computer game and judged in that light is a more than competent piece of work.  I sense that the primary focus of this project was on creating the game, the album being an afterthought. "Music VR" itself is a refreshingly non-linear multimedia package, and reminded me very much of the "Myst" games.

In conclusion I think that Mike has been pushing himself more, not less, over the last ten years in his music. Trying out all kinds of different styles on his records and extending his artistic range by embracing the new technology available. I dunno, maybe he deserves to just rest on his laurels for a little while and get jiggy with "TB1" since over the last decade he's left us with some interesting stuff to mull over. Whatever else you have to say about his work for Warner, none of his other work has provoked quite as much discussion and thought from people with such a divergent range of opinions. That's gotta count for something.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Oct. 21 2002, 13:52

I think the reason the stuff in the last decade has promted more discussion is that its fresher in peoples minds and also a lot of people contributing to these forums have discovered Mike's music in the last decade. Incidently you got just as much debate going on in the late 80's early 90's about Mike's then recent career.

I do appreciate your sympathetic approach Wanderer unfortunately I  disagree with most of your points but everyone's entitled to their own opinions and yours are as valid as the next. These arguments tend to go round and round in circles.

One thing though. The only consistant critisism I remember of TSDE is that, apart from Crystal Clear, it doesn't contain any proper guitar solo's at all. A good album though definately the best of the last decade.
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Wanderer Offline




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Posted: Oct. 21 2002, 23:56

I have edited my post... to fix up the extensive spelling errors littered throughout (as I said, this was penned very early in the morning) and to explain myself a little bit better on some points.

I seem to be in the minority here. I believe that the Warner years are probably Mike's most non-commercial period. If you want to maintain a solid market for your music then the sensible thing to do (commercially) is to stick to a single formula with your albums and promote it to a specific demographic that has proven receptive to that sound in the past - not to do something different with each successive album and thereby potentially alienate your audience. Which is exactly what Mike has done in many cases it would seem.

In my opinion Mike's most commercial period was the eighties. Where in the wake of "Crises" Mike produced a series of albums aimed at the pop charts that consisted of half chart songs and a few instrumental pieces to keep the older fans happy. Getting "special guest stars" like Bonnie Tyler, Jon Anderson and Phil Collins couldn't have hurt their bankability either.

Well of course his most recent work will get the most discussion.... but such radically divided opinions? I don't think so.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Oct. 22 2002, 04:53

Quote (TOBY @ Oct. 21 2002, 13:52)
[...] critisism I remember of TSDE is that, apart from Crystal Clear, it doesn't contain any proper guitar solo's at all.

I often agree with TOBY, but not on this one. The guitar playing on LetThereBeLight and Ascencion is among his best ever, IMHO. There is tremendously much feeling in these solos, and a lot of techniqual skill (but of the 'fast' type). I haven't heard anything by Mike since then, sounding so superior.

I disagree with most of Wanderer's opinions. But I agree that there are different ways of using synths and in principle I have nothing against Mike working with them. As long as the result isn't too cheap, to simple.

It is also true that there where quite a number of commercial attemps in the 80's, with EM being the most terrible album. I never liked Mike's pop-songs (with a few exceptions). And for sure, Amarok, TBII and TSODE are superior to much from the 80's.

To me it isn't a question of the 90's vs the 70's/80's.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Oct. 22 2002, 05:13

Quote (Wanderer @ Oct. 20 2002, 21:05)
[...] Nor do I subscribe to the theory that synthesizers are an easy way out for lazy people who can't be bothered playing an instrument for real [...]

By the way: here are some quotes from Mike (taken from [URL=http://tubular.net/articles/02_11.shtml ).]http://tubular.net/articles/02_11.shtml).[/URL]

"Drum looping is an art in itself and I'm very lazy at it - I hate going through CDs of drum loops. But I was lucky enough to bump into a couple of programmers in southern Germany and I asked them to do all the loops"

"you don't need to be much of a musician any more to make very respectable-sounding tracks. With applications like Rebirth, you can make whole tracks using just this piece of software, and you can also download other people's work and modify it."
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Wanderer Offline




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Posted: Oct. 22 2002, 08:16

TO "THE MAN" :

Every time I click on the link you put above I get a "404 Error Message" telling me the page may not exist.

Where the HELL did you get those "quotes" from anyway? Since I can't at present access the article proving Mike said those things then I wanna know you're on the level, no offence.

With regards to those statements:
1. "The art of drum looping". I know a couple of people who are amateur DJs and they would probably whole-heartedly agree with Mike on this one. It does seem an odd statement considering Mike's reputation as a perfectionist, but then again maybe he just knows his limitations and drums aren't his forte. Think about it, this would not be the first time Mike has brought in drumming experts to help out... Phil Collins, Simon Phillips... just a few of the names that contributed to his music over the years.
Mike "borrowing" from other sources isn't exactly knew either. The big swabs of lyrics "borrowed" for "Incantations", the Philip Glass references on "Platinum" or the hypnosis tape samples on "The Songs Of Distant Earth" for example.

With regards to ReBirth I would imagine he is simply talking about the POTENTIAL applications of such technology since he has never put an album together in this fashion.

For me it's not a case of the 90s versus the 70s and 80s either. I just appreciate what Mike is trying to do with his current music and I like what he is doing at the moment quite a lot. But sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who thinks this way and everyone else is going on about how he's "lost his way". I'm not saying this cause I wanna stir up a fight, this isn't a "me vs. them" thing going on here. I'm saying this because this is how I truly feel about his music and I feel there have been far more negative comments about his current output than positive ones.

Gotta be some balance.  ;) Surely I can't be alone on this one?   :/
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Oct. 22 2002, 13:36

Wanderer I'm sure you're not the only one there are lots of people contributing to these forums who have discovered MO through his recent releases and if you like them then thats great, fair enough.

With regards Mike's commercialism and general musical progression during the last 20 years there are a number of interesting points worth considering.

Firstly Mike's career has allways divided opinion. I'm sure he alienated a fair few of his 70's fans with his 80's output just as much as he alienated a fair few of his 80's fans with his 90's output. The debate has allway's been strong and ferocious at times.

Secondly I would argue that Mike is courting commercial success now to just the same degree as he did when he started writing short radio friendly pieces for QE2. There's nothing new about this.
Wanderer's argument about Mike's recent eclectisism looks good on paper, a celtic album, a dance/ambient album, a guitar based album, a concept album and a chillout album. It all reads well but when you listen to them its a different story.

You get a truely awfull celtic album definately the lowest point of his career for me, a very unimaginative dance/ambient album in TB3, a hugely underperforming and compramised guitar album, The Millenium Bell which is more than just slightly underachieving and then the patchy Tres Lunas.

I know I'm being a bit general here and I do realise each of these albums contain their moments of passed Oldfield glory its just a shame they are just that 'moments'

The subjuct of Mike's 80's output is interesting.The way I see it Mike's 80's output suffers in just the same way as any other 80's artist does, it just sounds dated and very of its time today. His music was rarely less then interesting though,even his worst songs like Shine contained fantastic guitar solo's, little details which lack in his recent work.

It's tempting to say his Discovery, Islands and EarthMoving period was just as musically average as his TB3, Guitars and Millenium Bell phase but again I would argue that even EarthMoving still sounds like he's trying, some of those songs are at least melodically quite strong.

To finish off then I would say in no way do I think Mike has lost his muse I would just question the judgement that's been going into his recent work.

ps To The Man. I completey agree with you there are some fantastic guitar parts on TSDE but I do remember there being a lot of critisism for there not being enough of those fantastic guitar parts. Personally I like it the way it is.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Oct. 23 2002, 03:53

Wanderer, the link does not seem to work, but go to the 'articles' section of TubularNet and check the Sound on Sound November 2002 intervju.

Concering drum loops; I like that, if the loops are grovy. The issue here is that it is very very easy to produce a reasonable loop (like many of those on TL). I consider the loops on TSODE clearly superior.

No Wanderer, you are probably not alone, and in fact, I consider some of Mike's more recent output as being genious. He has certainly not lost his ability. But I feel that he could do even better, this is why I am complaining. Here I have TOBY's opinion; there are some really great moments but the records (V,TBIII,G,MB,TL) as an whole are not great. Surely there are less to discover on those albums than on any other MO albums (except EM)? Even TBIII, with some really great intensive and fresh moments, is as an whole not one of those milestone albums.
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Wanderer Offline




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Posted: Oct. 23 2002, 13:38

Thankyou, "The Man". I shall look at that article presently...
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Oct. 23 2002, 14:08

That interview in Sound on Sound was quite revealing I thought. With regarding the drums and percussion on Mike's recent stuff I would say loose those synth drum sounds.

The SODE aside, which was kind of ground breaking in the world of MO drum use, pretty much every drum sound he has used since has been the same and not at all original.
For a musician who used to be more aware than most of the potential of good druming to provide a backbone to music his use of percussion has become fantastically dull in recent times.

If I were Mike I would take notice of the fact that a lot of the better people making dance music actually sample or use live acoustic drums ( listen to pretty much any Chemical Brothers track as an example) and build up from that.

Again this is why some of his 80's stuff stands over pretty much any of his latter 90's stuff for me. The use of Simon Philips druming turned sometimes an average track into something quite special, and I think Mike new that.
The interplay between the drums and the music on tracks like the Lake for example were truely genius and again on Taurus 3.
So how did we get from that to Tracks like Viper on TL which was a good track allmost ruined by bombastic and unimaginative prcussion work?
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Oct. 24 2002, 05:59

I agree again TOBY. I have nothing against drum loops in principle, but they have been very dull on the records since TSODE. It is really hard to understand why, is Mike really UNINTERESTED in making original rythms? He has to be. Those on TL are really very very cheap and dull.

By the way, what does the intervjuer mean with the statement *Return To The Origin', for example, features a sound world very reminiscent of Tubular Bells I and II*   ???

Another idiot ... I hear NOTHING in this track sounding like TB! It is like saying that Bono sounds like Madonna BECAUSE BOTH SING, or, Bach and Shostakovich sound similar because BOTH USE STRINGS. Where do all those idiots come from?
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Oct. 25 2002, 20:30

Mark Wherry, the interviewer, is a computer music expert, and a fan of Mike's, so you could say he comes from the same place as all of us here...

I can think of reasons why he might want to say that - he may be referring more to the overall feel, or something like that. It obviously reminds him of those albums, which I don't feel makes him an idiot.
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Oct. 26 2002, 01:41

I'm afraid I have to agree with Wanderer: I do really like Mike's 90s pieces. But (and this seems to be the strange part around here) I also like his 80s and 70s stuff. I have found heaps of Mike's music really good: his 80s songs, the 70s instrumental ones (and the 80s instrumentals that he did) as well as his 90s works. It seems to be yery rare that you get a fan here who likes all of Mike's periods.

One thing I have a problem with is people who seem to form an opinion based on the fact that there is a small techno bit in there. Tubular Bells III is not a 'dance/ambient' album: it is an album that has several dance/ambient tracks on it. Piano tunes, flamenco solos and rocking guitars are hardly dance/ambient. I have a problem with anyone who calls Far Above the Clouds, and the album on the whole, unimaginitive. Prehaps I'm just biased bacause this is my favourite album of Mikes. Most of Mike's best albums for me come from the 90s (TB II and III, TSODE, Amarok). People seem to be crying out at the 'death of music' that synths will supposedly eventually cause. I find that really wierd. Synths will not 'kill' music, anymore than rock killed classical music.

I also find it interesting that people have critisised Mike for being 'lazy'. Mike does not have to do huge epics all the time, if he wants to do a simpler album then good luck too him. I have heard the Tres Lunas II mix album, and I love 'Solar System'. That does have techno bits, but they perfectly suit the song, and does not make it a techno piece.


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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Oct. 26 2002, 08:01

FABTC is a lovely piece you're right, the reason I think its unimaginative is that it was lovely when it was written in 1975 and is rather to blatant a rehash IMHO. The reason I'm saying TB3 is a dance/ambient album is that was the market it, to a certain extent, was aimed at. Yes there are a lot of other elemnts in there but this is again where it fails for me it doesn't gel particularly well.
If you don't think its unimaginative fair enough I just find it very, very average music that for the most part could be anybody performing it.
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Posted: Oct. 27 2002, 12:38

This is by far the most fascinating debate I have read about Mike's output for a long time. To add my own (very brief) opinion, I grew up with Mike's 70's output and consider myself spoiled a little as a result. I guess you are always going to favour the music of Mike's that you discovered at the time you discovered it! Let's be a little clearer... one will always prefer 70's, 80's or 90's MO. I prefer 70's but to me, he has not alienated me by his latter diverse output. A poor MO album (and there have been a few) still knocks spots off most of what is commercially available these days. His guitar playing is genius - I would just recommend he stays away from attempting to sing any further - an aspect of his albums I don't particularly like, be they guest vocalists or at worse, his own voice. Mike's talent lies in his multi-instrumental ability of which his guitar playing is his forte by far. It is this that I want to hear more than anything else, because there is no-one else on this planet that can create the unique sound that is Mike Oldfield. Unfortunately, his most robust and 'instrumental' playing for me remains firmly embedded in his 70's output.

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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Oct. 27 2002, 21:18

I've always liked his 80s instrumentals more than the 70s stuff: Crises, all of the Taurus series, The Lake, The Wind Chimes and lots of short instrumentals just seem to be more alive than the 70s ones. That probably has a lot to do with Simon Philips on drums. You're right, instrumental music is his forte, especially guitar, and most of his recent work has been instrumental. It's strange how many people focus on the one song that's in there as an example of how bed the album is.

I do agree that Millennum Bell and Guitars are not quite as inspiring to me as overall albums, but they both are brilliant compared to all the other stuff around at the moment...


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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Oct. 28 2002, 04:22

Quote (raven4x4x @ Oct. 27 2002, 21:18)
I do agree that Millennum Bell and Guitars are not quite as inspiring to me as overall albums, but they both are brilliant compared to all the other stuff around at the moment...

Why on earth should we compare with 'the other stuff out there'? Should we settle with MO albums full of 'fillers' just because  everything else is so bad ... ?  I don't think so.

Any journalist finding similarities between TL and TB is an idiot to me... He obviously didn't pay any attention at all to the music, just to the fact that Mike once composed the successful TB. How much brain capacity does this take, compared to, for instance, programming a space sond to successfully land on Mars? Think about it.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Oct. 28 2002, 13:23

I don't think you should read to much into it The Man sometimes  journalists just write things for the sake of it. If the guy writing the article, as Korgscrew says, is a known fan of Mike's then thats obviously something to be greatfull for.

Personaly I thought it was a good well writen article the guy obviously is familiar with Mike's work which is a good starting point. Of course its all from a technical point of view but seeing how Mike allway's gets asked the same questions in every other interview he does I thought it was quite revealing.
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TheMan Offline




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Posted: Oct. 29 2002, 06:49

Yes I overreacted ... I have seen much worse interviews.

( But why the f--- do they EACH AND EVERY TIME  have to mention Tubular Bells ??????????????????????????????? Surely there is very very little in common between TB and TL?).
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Posted: Oct. 29 2002, 21:42

I agree with Toby in that I think Far Above the clouds is very unimaganitive and as Oldfield has admitted himself in interviews, very easy to do. He simply has a euro pop dance beat overlayed with the distinct tubular bell sound, which dosent really play a melody (as such) just desends then places the original tb base line over as a sample.  When I first heard this I was really dissapointed, I liked the ambient interpitation of the tb theme and was hoping for a reinterpritation of "grand piano" in some way.

I didnt want the album to follow a strict line mimicing the previous 2 but I feel he sold us short (a little bit) .  It didnt have as much consideration as the original sequel and I think this will show in its longevity.  

Wanderer I too have know problem with oldfield using synths, there a tool, which give musicians a wealth of possibilities to create. synths dont spell dance music and I hold out for an album where Mike crafts a sound combining his unique guitar playing with his unique synth sound. (weightless) I think is the perfect example of both elements combining perfectly both synth and guitar (in IMHO) are distinctly Oldfield, yet combined seemlesly I love this just as much as his acoustic stuff on Ommadawn etc.

Hes got it in him, he tends to do it better when he knows theres a bigger audience waiting.
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