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CS2x Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: July 2002 Posted: July 28 2003, 17:12 I like many of Mike's newer albums. Really, I do..this isn't some "I wish Mike would go back to the old days" thread. But I've realised, that if any other artist wrote sequal upon sequal of a successful album he/she wrote, I'd think of them very low. Sure, Tubular Bells3 was great. But why did he have to call it that? And Tubular Bells 2003 is a ridiculous concept. Yes, the original had a (few) mistakes...so what? You don't see Jarre re-making Oxygene (yes, there was Oxygene 7-13, but that was a continuation of the original idea, and now Jarre is venturing into jazz/lounge music anyway) or Vangelis re-recording Chariots of Fire, etc. It's quite frankly ridiculous, and I did buy TB2003 and was initially very excited about it, but thinking over the whole Tubular Bell thing, I can understand where some critics are comming from. It's really no excuse when you have artists like Autechre who change their sound with each album, or even people like Vangelis who still create masterpieces like Mythodea. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: July 28 2003, 18:42 Yup you're completely right chap, I think it's hard to see things any other way really. Somebody elsewhere on these boards came up with the interesting idea that what if TB3 was called Far Above the Clouds and had the Secrets tracks replaced with something different, would it make it a better album? I'm not sure it would make it better but it would certainly change you're perception of it. Personaly I was never a fan of the idea of TB2 let alone the album, it seemed like a last act of desperation by Mike to get recognised again, it worked of course but he shouldn't have needed to do it in the first place. Some fans can defend Mike all they want but there are a lot of truths out there as far as judging his career is concerned. It's an unfortunate fact that a lot of people pour scorn over Mike's career but you have to admit he's given them a certain amount of reason to over the years. Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: July 30 2003, 06:17 I certainly can see your point, but I can't agree with you that Mike has 'lost it'. If you really think Tubular Bells III, or any album, is great, it shouldn't matter what it was called, or what picture is on the cover. They are all secondary concerns to the reason we buy the album in the first place: the music. Personally, I think an artist should be judged on the music that they make. That is what they do: make music. I think it's unfair to say that Mike is losing it based solely on the titles he choses to give his albums. Plus, you say that Oxygene 7-13 was a 'continuation of the original idea'. Why wasn't Tubular Bells III a continuation of the original idea? It certainly was totally different to the original Tubular Bells, so why is it any different to Oxygene? -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: July 30 2003, 08:45 Well the difference with oxygene 7-13 is that Jarre intended it to be a genuine continuation of the first album. He used mainly the same analogue synths and tried to recreate the same recording techniques and also the same atmosphere as the original album. It's hard even with a powerfull imagination and a lot of understanding and forgiveness to see any actual or atmospheric similarities between TB and TB3. As has been said here before Mike did say originaly in 1990 that he was planning a continuation of TB by writing parts 3 and 4 and only using the original instruments, this in my opinion would have been a much, much, much better idea, I'd love to know why he didn't do this. It's very, very, very hard to see TB3 as a continuation of the original album (atmosphericaly) unless you desperatly want to, whether you like it on its own merrits or not. It is however much, much easier to see it as evidence that Mike has difficulties coming up with new directions for his albums, let alone easier to see all the bell albums as a cynical marketing ploy. At the end of the day it's fine for fans who wish to be forgiving towards Mike as far as all the bells albums are concerned however I'm affraid the rest of the world isn't that forgiving towards him and thats why there's so much scorn piled on Mike both within his own fan base and in the music world at large. Back to top

SCprogfan Unregistered Posted: July 30 2003, 11:23 OK, let's get real here for just a minute.  Let me start by saying that I am a big fan of Jarre, and I like the Oxygene albums.  But if Oxygene 7-13 was really meant to be nothing more than a continuation of the original idea, why does it start off with a very obvious rehash of the hugely popular Oxygene Part IV theme?  Yeah, that's not like Tubular Bells 2 at all, which I think is one of Mike's most brilliant works ever. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: July 30 2003, 12:48 Hang on chap are you having a laugh????? TB2 starts with a rather blatant rehash of the hugely popular TB theme and then continues on in that vein through more or less the rest of the album. To my ears Oxygene part 7 is actualy a lot more removed from Oxygene part 4 than Sentinal is removed from the intro of TB1973 thats why I think what Jarre did with his Oxygene sequal is actualy slightly more artisticaly credible (but only slightly) than what Mike did with TB2. TB2 was just to much of a rehash, I mean personaly I'm not a huge fan of either sequal but thats a seperate story. As far as TB2 is concerned, if he did with that album to the original what he did with Amarok to Ommadawn I think he would have got far more artistic credibility (indeed like he did with Amarok) with TB2, and also ended up with another bloody brilliant album to boot. A TB parts 3+4 may well have been less commercialy successfull than a TB2 rehash and I think he probably knew that and thats what possibly scared him off the idea. Which brings us back round to him doing things for commercial reasons rather than artistic ones. But thats just my opinion, my guess is the truths halfway in between. I know Mike has often said that Amarok is only a sort of sequal to Ommadawn but you have to admit it is a fucking amazing sort of sequal and it's considerably more original, diverse and also uncompramised than what TB2 is to TB1, I'm sure he could have done the same again with a TB parts 3+4 had things worked out differently.  Just out of interest, I recently found on one of my video's a TV interview with radio DJ Bob Harris who along with John Peel was one of the highly influential British DJ's who championed Mike's early career. The interview was about TB2 on the day of that albums release in 1992. "TB2 looked at on it's own is a lovely piece of music writen by a very, very talented musician but when you compare it to the original I think its far to similar, I think people who bought the original album will be less impressed by it for that reason. If it's going to apeal to anyone it'll be to a brand new generation of record buyers." And I think thats exactly right and exactly what happened. Back to top

CS2x Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: July 2002 Posted: July 30 2003, 18:32 I agree with you Toby, I can't see very much similarity from Oxygene4 and Oxygene7 at all. Tubular Bells3 isn't a continuation of the ideas of Tubular Bells. It's a pretty cool acoustic/dance album, and doesn't "feel" like Tubular Bells. Maybe he hasn't "lost" it, but he's getting cynicle, or something...I mean, TB2003? Very silly, if you ask me. Back to top

MusicallyInspired Group: Musicians Posts: 1445 Joined: June 2001 Posted: July 30 2003, 18:51 I think his music isn't as emotional because there's nothing really tragic going on in his life. That's a lot of what makes music good sometimes, the emotion behind it. That doesn't mean his music isn't good. Just not epic and extravagansic. That also means he probably notices this and goes back to the music that did have that emotional backing behind it. I still stand on TB2003's side, though because I didn't like the first one much at all. This version made me appreciate the composition a lot more. -------------- BrandonBlume.com "The beauty in life is in the embracing of the variety of things. If all the world was blue there would be no colour blue." Back to top

SCprogfan Unregistered Posted: July 31 2003, 11:53 Well, I was just being funny and a bit sarcastic.   Of course I realize that TB2 could be considered a "rehash"  with the near-cloning of all the themes, etc.  I just meant that when you put on Oxygene 7-13, the first thing you get is an updated version of Part IV, and I would guess that it is not an accident.  I will admit that the rest of the album doesn't try to clone the original, though. Back to top

Dinenndael Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: July 2003 Posted: July 31 2003, 17:47 Isn't he just playing on the popular brand name? People generally know that Mike Oldfield did Tubular Bells, and know the "Exorcist" theme thing, but people generally don't know of stuff like Songs of Distant Earth etc etc. He seems to be creating a continuing brand with his music. That said. TB3 is all dancy and thus not one of my favourites   Back to top

Ken Unregistered Posted: Aug. 02 2003, 07:48 Here's an alternative viewpoint: "artisitic credibility" is a rather abstract concept that (a) doesn't pay the bills, and (b) doesn't make the music any more enjoyable to listen to. Tubular Bells was the first album I ever bought, and I loved (love) it immensely. I then went on to buy every album he released until something odd started to creep into his "music". I suppose that's the artistic credibility someone mentioned above. By the time he got to Amarok I was convinced he'd completely lost the plot. It's hard to imagine a less melodious, less enjoyable cacophony. Just a bizarre concoction of grating abstract sound-effects. If I want sound-effects I can buy a BBC sound-effects album. What a relief then when he started to create actual music again. I love Tres Lunas. I love TBII and TBIII. To suggest the latter are simple, lazy rehashes of the original is to completely miss the point. They are fresh explorations of its form and structure. And that brings me to TB2003. Nothing fresh there I'm afraid. I would have far rather he'd spent his time and energy producing a TB IV or Tres Lunas II. Its only saving grace is that it is not an Amarok II. Ken Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Aug. 03 2003, 14:24 "artistic credibility" is a rather abstract concept that (a) doesn't pay the bills. Surely art of any quality should be about more than making money, Mike somewhat paradoxicaly (suprise, suprise) has said so himself on many occasions. Anyway I'm sure Mike's sitting on a fair sized pile of cash already so why doesn't he take more creative risks like not putting the TB logo on the Mellenium Bell. (b) doesn't make the music any more enjoyable to listen to. Quite true but you usualy find that peoples appreciation of a piece of art or music is actualy suprisingly influenced by whether or not the artist and/or art is thought of with high regard by others, but obviously that hasn't been your experiece with Amarok which a lot fans and a suprising amount of critics regard as possibly Mike's best album. Artistic credibility basicaly means respect and respect is in short suply for Mike these days. Mike got a huge mountain of respect for his 70's output but that mountain has now been hugely erroded away and a fair amount (though by no means all) of blame can be pointed at his obsession with TB albums. If you wish to regard TB2 and TB3 as "fresh explorations of its form and structure" then fair enough, I'm sure you'd find a fair few fans out here who would agree with you. Unfortunately for you (and indeed Mike) there's also a fair few fans out there who along with most of the music world could in no way be that generous with their assesment of the TB sequals. Why is it missing the point to regard those albums as simple, lazy rehashes of the original? Fundamentaly for a lot of people thats what they are. I know from reading endless amounts of interviews with Mike that somewhere in  there there is a kind of convoluted point to the TB sequals but I'm less than sure he's ever really justified anything. Back to top

MO fan Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 10:54 I dont think Mike has totally lost it. To me, he has slipped very badly to go the 'easy way out' and come up with yet another version of tubular bells. I did not want another tubular bells as he could have spent the time working on something more unique, I was very happy with the origonal and I agree that a such a great album should not have been mucked around with time and time again, which Mike has been very guilty of. The final straw was the copy protection and Mikes recent interview knocking the very fans that pay him for his artistry. I have felt very let down this year by the above, after enjoying most of his albums produced over the last 30 years. Waiting year in and year out for the next album. As a fan of his music, I have not given him up, even though he seems to have done the dirty on us (re: his interview), and I wilI now await the contents of his next album with eagerness, As usual there will be some great pieces of music to listen to. One condition though, it must be copy protection FREE. Cheers, MO fan     Back to top

MusicallyInspired Group: Musicians Posts: 1445 Joined: June 2001 Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 13:19 I don't think he lost it. He's just not trying. Purposely. He said he was bored of making JUST music. If he tried and had the drive to do it it would be every bit as good as say Ommadawn or TSODE. -------------- BrandonBlume.com "The beauty in life is in the embracing of the variety of things. If all the world was blue there would be no colour blue." Back to top

BOOsTER Group: Musicians Posts: 1024 Joined: Jan. 2003 Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 16:34 yes gotta agree with Brandon... Mike needs to relax to return the taste to do music.... that might be it. and doing remixes is one of ways how to (so maybe that's a bit why about TB2003) so I think that we should just let Mike relax. Just think like when you do any other "work" which is still work though you love it. You will get stuck once and will not know what to do anymore...and then you try something different to spend your time with to get your power to do the original thing back again hope you understand... just a few thoughts -------------- http://www.djbooster.net Back to top

stitchfan Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: Aug. 11 2003, 05:55 I think that both MO and Jarre's newer albums had been boring, but I hope they are coming up with much better albums soon. [QUOTE] Ohana means family Back to top

SCprogfan Unregistered Posted: Aug. 11 2003, 09:52 You know, Mike just might wake up one morning, or even in the middle of the night and yell "A-HA!", run to his studio and start furiously composing the next masterpiece! Back to top

BOOsTER Group: Musicians Posts: 1024 Joined: Jan. 2003 Posted: Aug. 11 2003, 11:33 well I just hope it won't have anything to do with A-HA (That band I mean) -------------- http://www.djbooster.net Back to top

Tellur Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: Oct. 2002 Posted: Aug. 11 2003, 12:12 In the first post of this topic you mentioned Mythodea by Vangelis, calling it a masterpiece - I think that Vangelis is the one who repeats himself now, and he is the one who lost it - Mythodea is just a combination of tunes from previous Vangelis albums, and mush as I like it, I hear the tunes before many times (1492 COP, The Mask, Soil Festivities, to point out three). Mike at least says he is remixing TB, he doesn't pretend it's a new piece likle Vangelis does. As for Oxygene 7 -13, it is even better than the original. But I agree with you on one thing, Jarre lost it too with his Sesions 2000 and Geometry of Love projects. He has changed his label now so let's hope he'll change his style and attitude too.  But guess what - he is also releasing an album with new versions of his old songs. Maybe they all lost it? If I can't get a brand new album, then all I want is Voyager II, Ommadawn II or TSODE II. Thanks Mike. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Aug. 11 2003, 13:56 The excusable difference you can put in Mike's favour when it comes to these debates is that at least he has been highly prolific. I'm not hugely familiar with Vangelis's career but I am with Jarre's and I know he doesn't release albums often, 3 (dodgy) albums in the 90's to Mike's 8 (lets include the MB for arguments  sake). The problem with Jarre is that he dug himself into a rut both with his music and concerts. If Mike is best  known to the man on the street as 'that bloke who is forever releasing Tubular Bells albums' then Jarre is certainly best known as 'that bloke with the laser harp'.   I know which one I'd rather be associated with. Thats not to pour to much scorn on Jarre's career however, he's writen and produced some fantasticaly original music and his early work, like Mike's, is quite rightly highly celebrated by those who care. I am however much more interested to see what Mike does next (arn't we all here?) than Jarre who is somebody I pretty much gave up following closely a long time ago, though if I heard he'd released an interesting album I would certainly buy it. Back to top

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