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The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Jan. 09 2009, 08:20 I'm sorry if this has been discussed before but anyone else notice how Oldfield fans have a soft spot for JMJ?I'm one of them cos i love the frst few JMJ albums,particuarly Equinoxe.I wonder why they seem to be linked (the late 70's fondness for the sports jacket aside).I know my Dad loved TB and also like Oxygene so i associate the 2 to early childhood.  Fundamentaly the only real link is the use of synths and long peices but musically they are really quite different.For one there are no guitars or any acoustic instruments of any sort on Jarre's albums and that's really the point of his work.Just an observation but i'd like to see what you all think.I was prompted by the name TubularJarre on this site. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Jan. 09 2009, 20:23 I got into Jarre before I got into Oldfield. Jarre is probably the guy that got me truly hooked into instrumental music, and in a way it "prepared" me for Oldfield's more massive pieces. I still love several of Jarre's records, and Equinoxe is one of my easy picks for "Top 10 albums ever". -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Jan. 09 2009, 22:30 I think there`s a thread somewhere Caveman about the Oldfield Jarre Vangelis connection.You know why do a lot of people like those three musicians I guess?I mean I can`t deny it I`m a big fan of all three of them myself.Although I don`t listen to as much of Jarre`s stuff anymore I have to say. So ok they`re all guys who have made largely instrumental music within a rock/pop field.But imo I think they`re all radicaly different from each other.You know outside of what you might get from the music emotionaly,and to what they as artists seem to put into it emotionaly.I don`t think there`s too many similarities there at all myself.I think the main reasons why they tend to get lumped in together is that they`re high profile,and accessible I guess.You know they`re all capable of coming up with great melodies and strong compostions no doubt about it.Plus at the end of the day how many excusivly instrumental artists are there who can operate and cross over succesfully outside of a blues/folk/jazz/classical/dance/new age/prog (you name it I guess) field?..Not too many I`d wager.All three of them do things there own way.They are their own men I guess is what I`m trying to say for want of a better comparison.Maybe stylisticaly speaking both Jarre and Oldfield have kind of wavered in recent years on a "fashion conscious" level.But that said,their music is still very identifable as their own I think. I`m sure there`s mention in that other thread about an NME interview with Mike,where he was asked his opinions on both Jarre and Vangelis sometime in the late 80`s/early 90`s..Err yeah..not very complimentary is the best way to put it? My favourite Jarre albums are Equinoxe and Zoolook,which I thought was outragously good when it was released.I havn`t been too knocked out by much of his recent stuff,but I`ll always find something on it that I really like.Geometry Of Love (2003) is quite nice.And even the slightly naff cod/dance orientated Teo & Tea has it`s moments.Both the Partners In Crime tracks from it for instance I thought were quite fresh and interesting.Hmmm not a lot else on that one though.   Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 02:03 No. Not the same ballpark. I'm sure a lot of room exists for debate, but what MO did/does is not the same as your "synthesizer only" art rock acts to include JMJ, Tangerine Dream, Vangelis, Anthony Phillips(some of it), Synergy(aka Larry Fast), Brian Eno. These were people who were "keyboard players" who cashed in on the new wave of technology around ELP times(don't exclude Emerson and Palmer, Bob Moog went out of his way to make working triggers for Palmer's stage drum/synth show). A lot of it was very elaborate and required real education to the creation of electronic sounds.  MO used manualy played stringed instruments to include acoustic/electric/bass guitars and even mandolins(I want to buy one soon), plus mastered each new generation of synth(s) that came along. My fav. MO "synth" period was the FM synth period of the early to mid 1980's. But it was fascinating to watch him "fit in" but also exceed the use of synths by other bands. I've got all the "synth-only acts" recordings of the 70's to the present. My lasting impression is MO is far more entertaining....to me. If I could choose one it would be Tangerine Dream. "The Bounty".....when the ship was aflame and there was no going home. TD did some great stuff, but as I said, not in the same ballpark as MO. But I'm sure a lot of them got more attention. Soundtracks make money. I would like to see MO make more sountracks, but I don't think that will happen. -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 05:25 Although I enjoy the works of all three artists, I can't help that this thought comes to me; is this music for boys who try to bypass puberty? I imagine the "big three" is a safe alternative for the young devout christian or a way for the budding homosexual to postpone his coming out. No drugs, no girls, no rock'n'roll. I for one can testify that I had trouble understanding the "rock" aspect of Mike's music until I was 12-13 years old, but I could completely connect with Jarre and Vangelis as a 9-10 year old. Don't get me wrong, I think this world has had more than enough of rock'n'roll stereotypes, but I think the psychology behing the young person's fondness for fluffy instrumental music is very interesting. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 06:09 I always found the electronic effects of Tangerine Dream, Jarre, etc, rather disappointing compared with some of the astonishing electronic/tape effects Pink Floyd came up with, especially on records like Ummagumma. However, I agree that some of Jarre's music is melodically quite memorable. Does anyone know if he wrote a piece called "Renvo"? I have this computer game where all the background music seems to be by Jarre; "Renvo" is the only one I'm not sure about. The game is called "Five Star Beelines". Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 09:26 One connection that just came to me there is that they`re both big Shadows fans.Mike has covered Wonderful Land of course,and expressed his love of old Flingel Bunt many times.Whilst on the Jarre side Hank plays guitar on his Revolutions album (London Kid) Which he then went on to perform with him live on his Docklands album.Conversely The Shadows have recorded versions of both Equinoxe Part Five and Moonlight Shadow appropriatly enough.Oh and bringing Vangelis into it as well,The Shadows recorded his main theme to the film Missing.Which I think I`m right in thinking was at the request of Vangelis,who decided not to release his own version of the score at the time.Not the first or the last time he`s done that either,the guy is a bootlegers wet dream. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 09:59 I got into Jarre when I was, what, 16? About that. I was heavily into prog rock, too. But I guess I was more of an escapist at that age, in a time of "the world is against me and I can't defend myself, THEY DON'T UNDAHSTAND ME" and so and such. Jarre was everything I could hope for: huge, expansive, exploratory, challenging and rewarding. But I only started to actually appreciate him, as in going in deep to catch the real qualities, with a fresh, clear, humble mind, a few years later. I knew that wasn't as "difficult" and "challenging" as I once thought it was, and then I started liking it even more -- as technically impressive and innovative as it was, it was absolutely accessible and humble, and I like that kind of music. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 16:37 Here`s a link to the thread I mentioned earlier discussing the Oldfield/Jarre/Vangelis connection.. Linky And also another link here talking about Jean Michel`s last album Teo & Tea.Actualy listening to it again here now,I`m liking it a lot more than I remember to be honest.Oh and I`d completely forgot about the track with the "moaning chick" on it..  Blimey I`ve got bloomin` kids in the house here you know. I don`t know if it`s just me speaking from my own life experiences here,but she sounds a bit over the top to me..Crikey man turn it down a bit woman,the wife`s gonna` be in here in a minute thinking I`ve got the porn channel on. Back to top

ommadawn,ah!ooh! Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Jan. 11 2009, 03:40 More likely the kids with the Naughty Bits Channel on, in this day and  "ooh er,missus" age. (sigh) Back to top

ommadawn,ah!ooh! Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 04:09 Scatterplot.I know not where to begin... Edgar Froese "keyboard player" ??? Brian Eno "keyboard player"? Around ELP times? When did TD form? "cashing in"?! If you've got all the "synth-only acts" recordings I suggest you listen again,without prejudice: as G.Michael would have it-and check a few relevant dates.Whaddya know about "Inventions for Electric Guitar" -Manuel Gottsching or "Zero Time" -Tonto. Ask a myriad of EM and Rock etc Musicians how influential those "synth-only" acts were/are.... Go ahead and buy that mandolin-have fun programming it,too. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 04:52 My, such hostility. Actually you've been hostile from the beginning. -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

ommadawn,ah!ooh! Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 05:07 Quote I'm sure a lot of room exists for debate If one can... Back to top

Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1868 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 05:40 I discovered Jarre before Oldfield too. I enjoyed his music a lot, and a lot less now, probably in part because of Mike. Jarre is now in some sort of lyricless disco category in my internal classification. He lacks virtuosity, doesn't do much with his fingers (especially when he wears gloves), he doesn't have a nice touch (check him play the theremin, it's pretty bad). What I still love about him is he doesn't use stupid videos that have nothing to do with the music during his shows but lasers triggered by music, I love his visual work. When I see him as a "sound+light wave architect" I find him a more enjoyable artist than when I listen to an album in my dark living room. Back to top

ommadawn,ah!ooh! Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 05:45 It's called banter,Scatterplot.It is what sets us apart from the animals-on occasion. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 05:51 Much hostility for sure, but it made me re-read Scatterplots original post. Firstly, early Tangerine Dream has very little to do with what Mike Oldfield did. They did improvised music not comparable to what Mike does/did/has done or what any of the other mentioned bands/artists did. Secondly, I must question Mike's "mastery" of various synthesizers. He is a well known presets abuser! Both that Yamaha (?) machine he used on Incantations, then the Fairlight. By the time he recorded earth moving he must have "mastered" the drum section of the Roland D-110. Not that it detracts from the music, but Mike is no knob-twidler a la Wendy Carlos. BTW, what FM-synth did he use, and on what songs can it be heard? -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 06:47 Quote (Olivier @ Jan. 12 2009, 05:40) He lacks virtuosity, doesn't do much with his fingers (especially when he wears gloves), he doesn't have a nice touch (check him play the theremin, it's pretty bad). That's one thing I particularly admire in his music: there's little space for flashing, and plenty of melody to compensate. Equinoxe is such a tight, carefully constructed album, because it almost sounds like the product of an ancient magical spell brought to life on synthesizers. To me, the "show-stopping" Oxygene V is saved mostly because that rhythm is so damn groovy. Regarding Brian Eno: the guy makes so many different things that it's pretty unfair to pigeon-hole him as anything. He came out of a glam rock band into a glam rock solo career which gradually became more and more wicked and experimental, and he only used synthesizers as much as he used piano and guitars and a myriad of collaborators. He's not only an artist but a sonic scientist, and his work with generative music is well worth checking out (Spore, anyone?). -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 07:20 Oh dear.I seem to have opened a can of worms here. I still love Equinoxe though.There's something about the opening section.Always makes me think of a sunrise for some reason.Looking at the replies here it rather proves my point though.Oldfield fans all seem to be into Jarre in various degrees.  I have been meaning to get into Tangerine Dream.I've seen clips of the Coventry Cathedral gig and was hugely impressed.Where should i begin?I know earlier on they used guitars but all the stuff i've seen is synth based. Regarding Sir M's comments about the adolecent boys getting into this kind of stuff as a way of 'escaping',I can totally see where you are coming from.I was a very introverted kid and used to sit in my room in my big headphones ignoring the world.I still enjoy it but it struck a chord in a big way back then. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 08:22 Quote (The Caveman @ Jan. 12 2009, 07:20) I have been meaning to get into Tangerine Dream.I've seen clips of the Coventry Cathedral gig and was hugely impressed.Where should i begin? Phaedra and Rubycon (1974 & 1975) are my favorite TD albums. They're mostly improvised but not entirerly experimental. The synth sounds are otherworldy and fluid. The structures are loose but not chaotic. These albums are essential. After that it's a gradual decline towards a more structured approach. I wish I could say a melodic approach, but that would be too complimentary. Great composer they're not. Especially not Edgar Froese. His 90s output is (to my ears) flat out awful both sonically and melodically. And that's not "bad taste-awful". More like "haven't even tried-awful". Late 80s album "Underwater Sunlight" is the last TD album I enjoyed at all. The very earliest albums are great though, but more in a krautrock, cosmic jam kind of way. Zeit is exceptional with its four dark, droning side-long pieces, like a sister album to Popol Vuh's "In der garten faraos" (also recommended). -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Jan. 12 2009, 13:37 Quote (The Caveman @ Jan. 12 2009, 07:20) I still love Equinoxe though.There's something about the opening section.Always makes me think of a sunrise for some reason. Man! You know, I always used to get the exact same impression -- and only years later I read, on Wikipedia if I'm not mistaken, that the album is meant to represent the passage of a full day. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it sounds absolutely 100% correct. Another thing about it is that it sounds absolutely underwater-y to me. One thing you got to say about Jarre is that he has an amazing, nearly synaesthetic ear -- the chords on part II flow forth and back like waves washing overhead, the tinkling notes sprinkled by feel like air bubbles rising quickly, the swishing sounds look like huge swarms of tiny little fishes in synchronised dance, and pretty much every sound in there gives me visions of deep, blue, cold water. It's an album to be heard and seen. And as much of a wizard Mike Oldfield is on his field, he never achieved that to me, so I think there's little reason to compare him and Jarre with the same criteria. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

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