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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 12 2006, 09:59 I was listening to Tr3s Lunas today, after a longish gap. I loved it, as usual. And although comparisons have inevitably been drawn between Tr3s Lunas and Light & Shade (if only because there are some TL-derived pieces on L&S), there seems to be a great gulf between them. I should say at the outset that my intention isn't to spark off another round of comparisons between these two albums, but to use them as an illustration. Even if people don't agree with my specific comments, I hope they'll get the main idea. In attempting to describe L&S in the past, I've tended to use words like 'clinical', or 'mechanical'. Most of it seems to lack that spark of what I can only call 'life', that for me has always been so important a part of Mike Oldfield's music. My big question is: what is that thing we call "life" in music? You know how he said that thing about real music being made when someone plays a single note and means it. Well, is that it? Is that what makes the difference? Is that what breathes the life into the piece? Sticking with my two examples: we know that he really meant Tr3s Lunas. He'd been developing MVR for years, living it, breathing it. The music is full of the inspiration from those landscapes and spacescapes. It doesn't matter if you don't like the sound of the saxotar on the TL album: you still can tell that Mike really meant it, when you listen to him using it in the No Man's Land Reprise. But L&S ... did he really mean that? It seems in hindsight like a thing cobbled together out of odds and ends he found in a drawer. He doesn't mention it in interviews any more. He seems to have been content to let someone else mix the bits of MusicVR that are on it, rather than do it all himself. His descriptions of the tracks seem strangely bland. Even if you don't agree with my assessments of L&S and TL, can you see the thing I'm talking about? The difference between a sterile piece of music, and one that seems to have the pulse of life in it? Even though I'm not an Amarok fan, it's very evident to me that Amarok contains this essential "life" in great abundance - perhaps more so than anything else he's done. But what is it? What is this philosopher's stone that transforms leaden music into golden life? Is it related to 'meaning it'? Or is it something else? Back to top

Harmono Group: Members Posts: 759 Joined: May 2005 Posted: Mar. 12 2006, 17:35 Do you mean that maybe Mike was not all that serious when he made light&shade. do you think he perhaps needed more cash or that he just wanted to make us feel bad? No seriously I think he really means it and maybe he just failed this time with LS. With failing I mean that it didnt become popular among fans. L&s is certainly many steps behind it`s time and it could very well be the reason why it isnt liked by many. Mike didnt reallly surprise anybody with L&S, unlike with some earlier albums. it seems that "life" in music is (sometimes) something that reflects the time when it was made and if it works it lives on to other times. I hope I made a point, my english is lousy. Alan your question is difficult like usually... Back to top

The Bell(end) Group: Members Posts: 1051 Joined: July 2005 Posted: Mar. 12 2006, 17:48 I agree Alan, L+S is odds and ends, and TL has a concept of which Mike cared about alot. L+S does have some good odds and ends however, such as Sunset and Blackbird. True, Blackbird is nothing more than a decent piano piece, and he wasn't REALLY inspired by his motorbike at all. I believe that Sunset was a piece created (in his mind) at the time of TL, but Mike didn't use it, maybe he didn't think it would fit in. Shade is just experimentation, and Mike soon got bored of that genre, as he said, not enough depth. One of the things that gives Amarok so much 'life' is the lack of electronically created sound (except guitar of course). As well as the passion, 'hand made' sounds are more, well, real, basically! One of the things that let L+S down was the abundance of technology, too much. I like the use of the vocaloid on 'Surfing', and I like the saxotar in TL, but the drum box and synths took that side of things too far. I find drum boxes annoying, not so much in TL, but TSODE (at times) and certainly L+S. -------------- When the night's on fi-ya, do you need love's arms to hold yew? :D Back to top

Harmono Group: Members Posts: 759 Joined: May 2005 Posted: Mar. 12 2006, 18:03 Alan how can you find "life" in Amarok if you are not a fan? Back to top

stevenmd779 Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Mar. 12 2006, 18:13 I think that Light and Shade lacks counterpoint, developed melodies, and complexity. I used to like these albums like Songs of Distant Earth, Tres Lunas, and Light and Shade, but they get old quick. Nothing is better than those first albums. -------------- "A people who would sacrifice liberty for security will lose both, and deserve neither." Ben Franklin Boogs is fo' da chode man. Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Mar. 12 2006, 22:45 I wonder how much of it is the life that the artist breathes into the work, and how much we, the listeners, are responsible for that. I suspect it's a combination. Musical works may be art forms that lay waiting dormantly to live within us when we make that connection. Perhaps "life" in music is a reflection of our own enjoyment. It is all alive and organic--but whether or not it has the proper chemistry to jive within us depends on our various chemistries. That is (to say something cliche) the draw of Mike's music--it is so varied that some of it will inevitably have the right chemistry for each of us. When the chemistry of the music mingles with our own, the work gains the power to transform our lives or at least adds positively to the quality of it. What if we had no idea when Mike really "meant it" and didn't know very much about technology, vocoders, Vocaloid, Cantor, drum loops, etc. and had to rely solely on listening and having a chord struck (no pun intended) within ourselves?  Would we be freer to connect with more of it? I dunno! Sometimes do we suffer from TMI (too much info)? BTW.....Even though Mike was certainly experimenting with technology on L+S, I elicited quite an emotional reaction at this past St. Brigid's Jam dancing TOAA alive <-: -- several really connected with the music. Hmmm....not sure I should write posts while listening to "Awaken" by Yes.   -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 02:11 Hmm. Very interesting topic! Thanks Alan for coming up with something like this to take us back to discussion like this . I think the first thing that I thought of when reading your post Alan was of the 'life' element. there are 18 (for some of us) seperate works on Light and Shade, and do you consider every single one to be without that spark? Do they all have varying degrees of life proportionate maybe to the effort or the enthusiasm that Mike had whilst creating the track? To that end, I began a track-by-track re-visit analysis of the whole album. Angelique : To me, this woudn't have been that out of place on 3L. It has a distinctive, yet similar mood, and I feel the complexity is about the same as the 3L tracks. Blackbird : Although some people really love this, it took me about 3 months to actually connect with this piece. Even still, it doesn't really communicate with me on that many levels. Maybe I'm just not receptive enough, but I find that musically there isn't as much to excite me as there is on TAIH for example. The Gate : Wonderfully calming. To me, this is significant of a completely different approach to music compared to 3L. This is complete mood inspiring music to me. It appears from my perspective to be composed to evoke certain emotions or moods only. Very strange - certainly something I've not seen Oldfield do before - REF: Clear Light - completely mood evoking to me, and yet completely incomparible. If Clear Light gets most of it's musicality from the surrounding tracks, i.e. the identity of TB II, then maybe this is why The Gate lacks that extra bit - at least I cannot detect a cohesive identity between tracks on either CD. First Steps. First Steps. I personally consider this to be the best thing on this album. Worth paying the money for just for this. Yes, it sounds synthetic, but lacking life... I'll admit, I find that a tough question. I suppose this may be an instance of the innate musicality of a track overriding the feelings I might normally get - the raw music to me is just so good that I find such an analysis difficult. Which in itself of course, proves to the negative I guess - if I can't tell immediately then I can't be sure that I have detected any 'life'. Closer. Oh dear. This feels like a bridger track. I don't feel as though I could wake up in the morning and go - "Oh yea! I want to listen to that!" because it hasn't it's own identity again, for me. Our Father. Now this I can categorically say that I think this is the worst contender on Light. This may have been made to provoke emotion; but this stirs none when I listen to it. It even feels slightly disjointed; unfinished to me. Rocky: 'tis the same with this as to Blackbird. Sunset: Similar thing to Angelique. This to me, truly has warmth that I can sit and bask in at the end of a day, or when I need it. Shade: I think this is where my opinions are likely to cause the most trouble, both with others and also with the fact that my opinions probably wont be conjucive to continuing this analysis. Quicksilver: Oh dear God. Resolution:   . Slipstream:   Surfing: Aha! Something (IMHO) worth listening to! w00t. I like the idea behind this, but this does feel like a technological test rather than a track with raw emotion. I like the guitar riff towards the end too, but after considering the entire experience... this gets a No vote. Tears of an Angel: Where has Mike gone? That was one of the first things I felt when listening to this. (L+S). When I first heard 3L, it was weird and different... like all Mike albums for me up until then had been. There's always a different energy with each album; Platinum for me is 1000 light years away from Crises, just because of the point of them. L+S however, I heard it and got it immediately. Maybe this is indicative of the different energy that it lacks - it feels almost manufactured and generic to me. The only track left I'll comment on: Ringscape. A good piece of music, but it becomes evident that he never heard Brandon's reproduction of the 3L version. If that was a straight copy, then why not just use that? Maybe he felt that directly copying the track from 3L was a bit wrong, so he added more. In doing so, IMHO, he has spoiled what is a very heartfelt riff and a brilliant piece of composition. One of the few times recently where something he's done hasn't 'clicked' with me in some way (other than the rest of Shade of course). I hope this helps Alan. I know this is mostly my opinion but maybe if you did a similar analysis you might be able to better determine what you feel exactly. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Chicular Group: Members Posts: 240 Joined: Sep. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 04:44 Have any of you ever thought 'Maybe i read too much into music'? At the end of the day you either like it or you don't!   I like Light and Shade more than i like Tres Lunas and if you really want me to explain my opinion i would say that Tres Lunas is over-produced. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 04:44 Quote (Harmono @ Mar. 12 2006, 23:03) Alan how can you find "life" in Amarok if you are not a fan? Many thanks everyone for these comments - I'm in a rush this morning, so I'll have to respond to most of them later. But I thought I might make a start with this one of Harmono's. First, I'm a fan of parts of Amarok. Some of it is the best music he's ever made, I think. But for me it's spoiled by the discords and crazy noises. But even where I don't like it, I can sense the life in it - I don't have to like it, to sense that. There's a painting by Rubens in the National Gallery called 'The Straw Hat'. Now, I'm not at all a fan of Rubens, but this painting bristles with life - it looks as if just 5 minutes ago he'd expertly dashed on the last paintstroke, put down his brush, and walked whistling out of the door with the girl on his arm. Yet it was painted 300 years ago. That's the quality I'm talking about. And when you listen to Amarok it sounds just as urgent today as it must have done when Mike first played the mastertape back. Does that answer your question? I don't think you have to 'like' a work of art to sense the life - the vigour - in it. More later - no time just now. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 08:29 Quote (Inkanta @ Mar. 13 2006, 03:45) I wonder how much of it is the life that the artist breathes into the work, and how much we, the listeners, are responsible for that. If Marcel Duchamp is right, then we contribute 50%. We need to bring something ourselves - receptiveness, understanding, sympathy etc., without which nothing can happen. So in one sense, we are as responsible for injecting the 'life' into the music as the artist is. But even so, we all know of instances of performances where the spark just doesn't seem to be there, no matter how hard we work to play our part in the process. And surely no one would deny, even if they hate the piece, that from the moment Amarok begins, we know we're in the presence of something that is emphatically 'alive'. Quote What if we had no idea when Mike really "meant it" Well, I think we are in that position, in fact. For all I know, Light and Shade may have issued from somewhere deep in his soul, and poured out as an urgent utterance. But it doesn't sound like that when I listen to it. That impression becomes more solid when I think about the way he himself has talked about the album - but primarily I'm basing my opinion on the impression the music itself creates. Quote I elicited quite an emotional reaction at this past St. Brigid's Jam dancing TOAA alive <-: -- several really connected with the music. Yes, I can understand that - and significantly, I think, TOAA is one of the few tracks on the album that does seem to have some of that inner life that I'm talking about. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 08:43 Quote (Chicular @ Mar. 13 2006, 09:44) Have any of you ever thought 'Maybe i read too much into music'? No. Music, and art and literature are endlessly fascinating to me. Without them my life would be dreadfully impoverished. So it seems very natural to want to discuss things that are so important to me. Quote At the end of the day you either like it or you don't! Well, that seems like a very black and white statement about something that's essentially multicoloured, with an infinite range of tones! I always think that 'like' is such a uselessly bland word. I 'like' strawberry jam. To use the same word to describe my feelings towards, say, "Let There Be Light" (which are so intense that I can't really express them in words at all) would be absurd. So I can't really recognise my own position in the 'like it or not' terms that you describe. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 08:54 Quote (arron11196 @ Mar. 13 2006, 07:11) First Steps. First Steps. I personally consider this to be the best thing on this album ...Yes, it sounds synthetic, but lacking life... I'll admit, I find that a tough question. I suppose this may be an instance of the innate musicality of a track overriding the feelings I might normally get - the raw music to me is just so good that I find such an analysis difficult. ... Ringscape. A good piece of music, but it becomes evident that he never heard Brandon's reproduction of the 3L version. If that was a straight copy, then why not just use that? Maybe he felt that directly copying the track from 3L was a bit wrong, so he added more. In doing so, IMHO, he has spoiled what is a very heartfelt riff and a brilliant piece of composition. I've picked out these two bits from TL because I think your response is very close to mine and it has a close bearing on this 'life' issue. Yes, there is some great music in there, and how great, and yet... and yet ... we're enjoying it in spite of knowing that something is missing. As if some great ideas, that once had been passionately felt, have been given a kind of peremptory run-through. So we're sensing the life that was once there, but we're only able to see it 'through a glass, darkly'. If these two tracks are played in amongst the tracks from the actual Tr3sLunas album, they seem to lack conviction - well, to me they do. It's that missing conviction that seems to deaden them. At least, I think it might be. I don't know the answer to my question. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 09:05 Quote (The Bell(end) @ Mar. 12 2006, 22:48) One of the things that gives Amarok so much 'life' is the lack of electronically created sound (except guitar of course). As well as the passion, 'hand made' sounds are more, well, real, basically! I can see why you say that, but I can't actually see why it must be so. Sounds are sounds - and the sound of a glass of water is no more real than the sound generated by a computer. I think it may be more to do with predictability. Set up one of those computer drum loops and there will always be an essential sameness about it, even if we keep changing certain aspects of it - so, unconsciously, a part of us 'knows' what's coming next, and our attention drifts away from the music. By contrast, if everything is played 'by hand' - and Amarok is an extreme example of this - you never quite know what's coming next. Blimey - I've just written five successive posts in this thread! Time to crawl back into my hole, I think! Back to top

Chicular Group: Members Posts: 240 Joined: Sep. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 09:34 Quote (Alan D @ Mar. 13 2006, 08:43) Quote At the end of the day you either like it or you don't! Well, that seems like a very black and white statement about something that's essentially multicoloured, with an infinite range of tones! I always think that 'like' is such a uselessly bland word. I 'like' strawberry jam. To use the same word to describe my feelings towards, say, "Let There Be Light" (which are so intense that I can't really express them in words at all) would be absurd. So I can't really recognise my own position in the 'like it or not' terms that you describe. Why don't you say 'I really like Let there be Light' or go one further by saying 'I love Let there be Light'. I love butter! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 11:58 Quote (Chicular @ Mar. 13 2006, 14:34) Why don't you say 'I really like Let there be Light' or go one further by saying 'I love Let there be Light'. Because both those statements are inadequate - at least, they are for me. If I were only able to use the word 'love' to describe both my response to butter and my response to 'Let There Be Light', it would describe neither experience meaningfully. As I experience them, they can't in any way be compared with each other. Do they feel like the same kind of thing to you? There's an infinite range of nuance to our experiences - I don't see why you want to restrict our use of language to such basic statements, when it's capable of so much more. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 12:14 Quote (Alan D @ Mar. 13 2006, 11:58) There's an infinite range of nuance to our experiences - I don't see why you want to restrict our use of language to such basic statements, when it's capable of so much more. It's Newspeak, Alan! Anyway, when I talk about "life" in music, I don't talk about it as a necessarily positive aspect. To be more precise, I don't talk about the "lack of life" in music as a necessarily negative aspect. I like Kraftwerk and Autechre, and I like the almost absolute lack of life in their music. But when I talk about "life" in music, most of the times, I'm talking about what goes on in my head, not in the music. However, "life" is a much more sensible thing to "place" in music rather than "emotion". You can link it with actual aspects of music, like the instrumentation, the way synthesizers are used, the "humanness" of the playing, etc. In the particular case of Light + Shade, I'd say the most harmful aspect is not the "lack of life", but the complete clueslessness of what it should be: electronic music or non-electronic music. When it doesn't have "life", it pretends to be. When it has, it tries to get rid of it. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 13:08 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Mar. 13 2006, 12:14) but the complete clueslessness of what it should be: electronic music or non-electronic music. I'm not sure what you are getting at. L+S failed because it did not hold to one single perception of genre defined by others? If so, isn't "Tubular Bells" also a failure because it isn't sure if it is a classical composition vs a rock instrumental? Or is "Ommadawn" side 1 a failure because it can't make up its mind if it is rock or folk? "Hey Elvis, put down that guitar and go home. You can't decide if yer blues, or country, so you might as well give it up. You ain't gonna make it." -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Korkesova Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: Nov. 2005 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 13:56 I am nut from they  discussion !  I think : At least one  accord of track lip to my hearts -  is going to happen his component and never died ! Sorry my Englisch, I am not in fig. -------------- it's never too late for me Back to top

stevenmd779 Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 14:06 This webpage has some good information concerning these things like why music is good. I don't know if it applies to this discussion a real lot, but there it is, and I agree with most of it. By the way, this guy who wrote this plays some real good keyboard music. -------------- "A people who would sacrifice liberty for security will lose both, and deserve neither." Ben Franklin Boogs is fo' da chode man. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 13 2006, 14:17 Quote (hiawatha @ Mar. 13 2006, 13:08) I'm not sure what you are getting at. L+S failed because it did not hold to one single perception of genre defined by others? Go and listen to the album. It's constantly trying to hold onto genres defined by others: "chill-out", "dance music", and whatever else it is. Mike himself applied those labels to himself, so don't blame me for doing that. Fact is that there's nothing wrong with applying a label to yourself and fully sink into that label and do it with all your heart. But Light + Shade doesn't "hold on to one single perception of genre": it doesn't hold on to anything, not even to an unique, completely new genre, like Tubular Bells did. Tr3s Lunas was more competent in saying "this is a chill-out" album and being one. Light + Shade doesn't try hard enough to be something, and is way too timid to "mix" several genres into one single thing. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

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