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nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: May 31 2008, 23:06 In the Guide, there was a comment to the effect: When you place the fourth gravitar in the pen on the third step you will be transported to Maestro World.  You will hear the music that later became Sunset on Light and Shade. This is obviously correct, but only if it is also correct to say that "Tubular Bells is the music that later became Tubular Bells II". What I mean is that while there are thematic resemblances they are two different pieces of music, equally good in different ways. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 01 2008, 04:43 We've had a number of discussions about this tune over the years, including the similarity between it and one from Sibelius's 2nd symphony - see here for instance. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 01 2008, 21:09 Thanks for drawing my attention to this, Alan. Actually, Sibelius's second is one work by him I dislike (apart from the opening bars, which are marvelous). If there is a resemblance, I prefer Mike's composition. Also, I notice in the thread to which you drew my attention vague suggestions of "copying" (in a negative sense). What many rock/pop fans don't realise is that musical quotation is perfectly acceptable in a "classical" music context; it's meant to draw the listener's attention to the issues addressed in the work alluded to. Mahler's work, for example (which I've never really warmed to, for what it's worth), is full of quotations of Beethoven etc. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 02 2008, 03:45 Quote (nightspore @ June 02 2008, 02:09) Actually, Sibelius's second is one work by him I dislike ... If there is a resemblance, I prefer Mike's composition. Extraordinary.... Enjoyable and fun though Mike's variations are (if that's what we can call them), there seems to me to be a vast gulf between those and Sibelius 2: like comparing a water pistol with a howitzer. Quote Also, I notice in the thread to which you drew my attention vague suggestions of "copying" (in a negative sense). What many rock/pop fans don't realise is that musical quotation is perfectly acceptable in a "classical" music context; it's meant to draw the listener's attention to the issues addressed in the work alluded to. Mahler's work, for example (which I've never really warmed to, for what it's worth), is full of quotations of Beethoven etc. Yes indeed. One could also say that to re-use someone else's theme is a relatively small thing in comparison with the wide-spread dependencies on someone else's 'style' that occur all the time historically - the bits of Elgar that could almost be Wagner; the (big) bits of Parry that could almost be Brahms, and on and on. Of course popular music is riddled with the same sort of thing too. So is all art, come to think of it, and even Newton recognised that he'd done what he'd done by standing on the shoulders of giants, so I suddenly wonder if I'm really saying anything worth reading here! Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 02 2008, 08:39 Quote (Alan D @ June 02 2008, 03:45) Enjoyable and fun though Mike's variations are (if that's what we can call them), there seems to me to be a vast gulf between those and Sibelius 2: like comparing a water pistol with a howitzer. Indeed, a water pistol is something designed to give pleasure, while a howitzer is designed to do the opposite! Seriously, though, note that I didn't say that Mike's composition was better than Sibelius's second, only that it gives me more pleasure (which is an undeniable fact). I don't think it would even make sense to say that Mike's piece is better than Sibelius's, simply because they belong to different genres. It would be like trying to argue that one of Shakespeare's sonnets is better than one of his plays (or, banally, that chalk is different from cheese). Sibelius's early music is certainly pleasant, but I prefer his later pieces, particularly Tapiola. And received critical opinion is with me on that one, at least!   Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 10 2008, 08:27 I've now listened again to Sibelius's second. Yes, the theme does appear to form the base for "Sunset" and the Maestro finale. Yet Mike has an astonishing talent for transforming the musically ordinary (and even music that many would consider extraordinary); for the melody comes from a section of Sibelius's second that I hate (near where those four staccato brass notes, repeated over and over in the symphony, sound like someone trying to machine gun the whole orchestra). It would be fascinating to know why he chose to rework this theme. Did he too feel it missed its true potential? It's hard to avoid that conclusion. Now let's seem him transform that tedious symphony in D Minor by Franck.... Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 10 2008, 11:50 Quote (nightspore @ June 10 2008, 13:27) Did he too feel it missed its true potential? I'm not entirely convinced that he knew he'd used it. I could easily believe that he didn't realise the extent of the similarity. Has he ever referred anywhere to it - does anyone know? When L&S came out, you'd have thought he might have given it a mention when discussing 'Sunset', wouldn't you? But I don't think he did. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 10 2008, 22:39 Yes, I imagine it would be very easy for a theme to lodge in the subconscious and then emerge, transformed, in the compositional process. I've referred to musical quotation before, of course. As an aside, it would be interesting know whether Wagner's grail theme, which was lifted in its entirety from Mendelssohn's fifth symphony, is considered quotation or simply Wagner being Wagner. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 10 2008, 22:45 Quote (Alan D @ June 10 2008, 11:50) When L&S came out, you'd have thought he might have given it a mention when discussing 'Sunset', wouldn't you? Alan, could you point me towards those discussions of 'Sunset', please. I'd be interested to read what Mike has to say about the piece, which I think is one of his most emotionally engaging. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 11 2008, 03:51 I seem to remember there were some comments about all the L&S tracks at MikeOldfield.com, but they doesn't seem to be there now. I had a quick look along the articles here at Tub.net but can't find them there either. There's probably a link buried somewhere in one of the early L&S threads. There was very little. He just referred to 'Sunset' as being based on a tune from the Maestro game. The only interesting point is that he didn't say it was based on a tune by Sibelius. Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: June 11 2008, 04:54 Quote (Alan D @ June 11 2008, 08:51) I seem to remember there were some comments about all the L&S tracks at MikeOldfield.com, but they doesn't seem to be there now. I had a quick look along the articles here at Tub.net but can't find them there either. There's probably a link buried somewhere in one of the early L&S threads. There was very little. He just referred to 'Sunset' as being based on a tune from the Maestro game. The only interesting point is that he didn't say it was based on a tune by Sibelius. Bit of web searching and I found the article I think you are referring to. I've posted it in its entirety on the L+S forum here. The relevant extract for Sunset is copied below: Sunset: "In Maestro, my second Virtual Reality game, there's a specific tune you can only listen to when you reach the winning level. Here, I made a variation on it, but this time around, I was thinking about a chill out album, so I thought it would be nice to call it Sunset." -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 11 2008, 11:00 Thanks for posting this, Matt. It seems strange that Mike should refer to the piece as mere "chill out"; to me it feels as though he's expressing heartbreak at some cataclysmic, irretrievable loss. "Blackbird" has that intensity, too, so do "Closer" and "Rocky". Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 11 2008, 17:16 Thanks Matt. I was in a rush earlier, and didn't have time to search very far. Back to top

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