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Topic: Mike cartoon< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
ian Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 02:08

I have emailed this site with no reply regarding the Hans Mike cartoon depicting him alongside Christ carrying a bell instead of a cross. As a Christian I find it offensive and trivializing the crucifixion. I wonder if the same cartoon would be allowed here depicting the Islamic faith.....? I think not.

As usual the Christian faith is an easy target.
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CuNimb Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 03:14

I'm sure no offense was meant. I think Christianity is considered an easy target is because Christians are typically a fairly tolerant lot.....which in my opinion is a good thing to be...  :D

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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 07:17

I'd agree.I'm as far removed from christianity as it's possible to get but i have no problem with christians.It's the person not their religious beliefs that is important.I'm pagan as i'm sure you all know.We get slated and people have this idea of us all dancing round fires naked.This is not neccesarily the case.Especially amongst British pagans.It's too damn cold for one thing!Plus the fact that most of us are perfectly normal people and have lives the same as anyone else.
 I can easily see why you would take offence at the cartoon but i'm quite sure it wasn't meant to be taken as an attack on christianity.


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THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 07:42

As an agnostic, I find it offensive that you find it offensive. (just joking! )

Okay, so I am walking on thin ice and risking getting into a fight, but the seriousness and "untouchability" of religions is often what makes them so vilified by many. The fact that such cartoon was made only means that Christianity is well accepted and seen as very significant.

But if you want to get truly hardcore, crucifixions were a fairly common form of execution back then, so the cartoon could be depicting the act in general, NOT the Christian meaning of it. You complaint is equivalent to seeing a picture of people eating and taking it as a joke with the Last Supper.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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Matt Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 07:57

I feel sorry for Ian for him feeling offended by content here as I always think of tb.net as a fairly inoffensive place (though ian, maybe you'de better not read the thread about things a nun wouldn't say! ).

However, offense I always feel is a fairly subjective thing - what offends some doesn't offend others. And whilst I think efforts should be made not to include material which is *too* offensive or seems to be designed deliberately to offend. I think it best to just accept that what others thought of as a bit of light hearted fun might be best ignored rather than worried about.

just my 2c worth....


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"I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels"
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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 10:50

Hey, it's all crap. Go design yourselves an album cover, it's fun. Religion just pisses everybody off. That's why so many have died for it. Just go ask Graham Nash.

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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 11:55

Quote (Scatterplot @ Feb. 27 2009, 10:50)
Hey, it's all crap. Go design yourselves an album cover, it's fun. Religion just pisses everybody off. That's why so many have died for it. Just go ask Graham Nash.

That's not true! Religion gives +1 happiness and +1 culture in every city with your state religion, and in every city under the Free Religion civic. Just ask Sid Meier.

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bevy Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 12:36

Did some one mention Religion? I aint going near this thread!

Dohh!! :)

Well I am here now so..

I am a Catholic and I do not find the cartoon offensive but I can see why some may be offended.

But lets not start the whole "what if it was depicting the Islamic faith" I can see where you are going with that.

I have a lot of Muslim friends and I can tell you, unlike the *extremist* We were shown by the press and media marching in the streets and looking for the blood of a certain Danish cartoonist.
They just shrugged it off, why? Because although they are Muslim they were also brought up in the UK with the same education and morals as myself.

Ian, hope you and the admins can sort something out.

Peace

Bevy.
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Olivier Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 13:00

It's by Marko, not by Hans.
I think here the target was Mike, not Christians. But to be honest, he did other ones, not published here, targeting religion. This one is very soft.

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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2009, 17:07

Here we see why this a was a bad idea for a thread. I've never said that to anyone on Tubular dot net, where there are no boundaries, within reason. I can't count how many times somebody, somewhere, out-of-the-blue just decides they have to communicate that something they see or hear is religiously offensive to them. It just -pisses people off- and disrupts the activity of the moment(take a look around ye lad). And all this for a cartoon thats been there for frigging ever! This is not really about religion or a cartoon, these things rarely are about anything truly dangerous. Its about conflict. I've noticed that those who initiate these religious conflicts do so because it's in their psychological nature. Usually very aggressive, conflict seeking behavior. Hell, I've been screamed at in the workplace over the years for religion. No shit. I can recall several times, from co-workers who just get their ya ya's out that way. Along with listening to ridiculous babbling that the moon landings were all faked. It was a mistake to even respond to this. No more conflict. Unless its the song.  Peace and long life. Tres Lunas might be a good listen right now.

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We raise our voices in the night
Crying to heaven
And will our voices be heard
Or will they break Like the wind
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ex member 419 Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 01:35

:cool: sheeees, lighten up little vegemites, marko pokes fun at mike all the time, if mike can laugh about it you can too...now all kiss and make up boys,  deb
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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 01:59

Welcome back Deb, whew, just in time! This subject is deep water that can and has drowned many. I'm outa here(this thread I mean). "Please get me out of here. Help me I'll do anything if you'll just please....get me out of here, Tonight Ohh Ohh...." A little bit from Invisible Touch there, could not help it. I'm out of this thread! But I could not leave without mentioning my notice of two words together. Someone up there used the words: "state religion". Wow. Is there a state that has a compulsory religion? In the US or elsewhere? If there is, we need to organize a rebellion. Anyway, I'm sorry I felt the need to interact in this one. Bless you Tubes. I'm outa this thread.
Jimbo


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We raise our voices in the night
Crying to heaven
And will our voices be heard
Or will they break Like the wind
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ian Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 04:52

I am not causing conflict, just expressing my opinion. For me trivialising the cruxifiction is mocking what Jesus did for us all (mankind)  weather you believe it or not. Yes, religion has caused trouble but I am not "religious" I am a Christian.

As for listenining to Tres Lunas Scatterplot...er no thanks. I would rather something decent like Hergest Ridge or Ommadawn.
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ex member 419 Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 04:53

Thanks for singing to me scatterplot, you definitly stuck to your guns onthis topic, and since the glorius revolution churches and states are separate,refer to the divine right of kings prior to gr, deb
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 09:44

Quote (Scatterplot @ Feb. 28 2009, 01:59)
Someone up there used the words: "state religion". Wow. Is there a state that has a compulsory religion? In the US or elsewhere? If there is, we need to organize a rebellion.

Yup, there still are. The most common examples are Islamic nations from northern Africa and the Middle East, but Wikipedia shows us some other examples: Argentina is officially Catholic, while Iceland is Lutheran. I looked that up mostly because you asked -- I was making an off-the-wall reference to the game Civilization IV, to try to lighten the mood with some geeky humour.

Ian is in his right to feel offended, and it's up to us to respect it, as well as any other opinion and attitude displayed here. Even though I was joking about me feeling offended, I did that to show that opinions and feelings are not relative -- not one is "more important" than any other, and if one is to be respected, all the others are. And as much as I think we all respect that, nobody is obliged to DO anything, since nobody is comitting any crimes. Also, there are two important points I've raised there that went without a response: the fact that the cartoon might not trivialise the crucifixion, but actually confirms how historically and culturally important it is; AND the fact that there's no reference, explicit or implicit, to Jesus Christ at all, and only to the act of crucifixion in general. Call me dishonest on that one, but freedom of speech has been an endangered species MANY times over history, and in many places it still is. I don't want to heat up the debate too much, because I think it's valid, and everyone is apt to voice his feelings on those things -- whether we agree or not. I don't defend only my freedom of speech. :)


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 09:55

Dear Ian,

Korgscrew and I have discussed your response to the cartoon. He may post his very well articulated thoughts on this, as well, when he has a moment.  

One point-- “a cross to bear” is a common expression and that is most likely what Marko was illustrating. Thousands of men, women, and even children literally had their crosses to bear in times past—it was a very common means of execution, particularly during the Roman Empire. The Greeks, Carthaginians, Persians, and the Macedonians also employed it. Sometimes straight poles and trees were used, in addition to the perpendicular cross beam. Think of the word, “excruciating” –something incredibly painful-- because it was such a horrifically slow death (though in the case of Rome, soldiers had to stay until the person(s) was (were) dead, so sometimes they hastened death so they could go home).  One Palm Sunday, our minister (when I attended a United Church of Christ church way back when) for his sermon delivered a moment-by-moment account of what it would feel like, and what one’s body would experience when crucified.  My hands still break out in a sweat just thinking about it. It is said that Emperor Constantine I, the first Christian Roman emperor, abolished the practice there because of Jesus.  

We all react differently to works of art. As an earth-based Wiccan type, one of my favorite cartoons anywhere by anyone is the one that Marko did of Mike zooming past a witch on a broom.  Considering our history and the Burning Times (getting burned alive for heresy wasn’t much fun,either), the way that we get stereotyped, and sometimes discriminated against even to this very day, maybe I should be offended, but it is my all-time favorite of favorites and I have a glossy printout of it hanging on my refrigerator door.  I don’t like “shoulds” very well, anyway. <-:

Ian, you have expressed your concern over the cartoon, your voice has been heard, but removing cartoons under these circumstances would be a dangerous precedent.  I am a librarian by profession and this is not unlike a book challenge, when people want libraries to remove books due to content. Once we start removing books from the shelf that someone finds offensive, where would we stop?  Items added to the collection generally stay—not unlike cartoons at tubular.net.

Best regards,

Inkanta


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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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bevy Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 12:15

Just take the pic down!

Then everyone is happy?
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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 12:28

I´m sorry, but I have to say this...

If ian - and fellow like minded over sensitive people - is so easy to upset, maybe the internet isn´t the right place for you..
nor radio or television, cinemas or billboards on the street..

We live in the 2100 century....it should have been the beginning of an enlightened era but instead we have this political correctness and over sensitiveness all over the place...religion leads the point..

If you say something negative about religion...all the fanatics scream and threatens..
If you mention a guy as "black" instead of african-american (or whatever) - the herd of political correct people stumble on each other to call you a racist..

GROW UP AND LIGHTEN UP..

You can all start your flaming now  ;)
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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 12:31

Quote (bevy @ Feb. 28 2009, 18:15)
Just take the pic down!

Then everyone is happy?

NO!

If giving in for all sorts of oversensitiveness...then we are on a downhill slop..

What´s next Bevy....what if I´m offended by the Tubular Bells logo Mike Oldfield uses...should Tubular.net shut down??
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bevy Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2009, 13:15

Quote (prisoner.of.the.dark.sky @ Feb. 28 2009, 17:31)
Quote (bevy @ Feb. 28 2009, 18:15)
Just take the pic down!

Then everyone is happy?

NO!

If giving in for all sorts of oversensitiveness...then we are on a downhill slop..

What´s next Bevy....what if I´m offended by the Tubular Bells logo Mike Oldfield uses...should Tubular.net shut down??

I am offended by your sig!

I agree, but in this case, lets just sort it by taking the pic down?
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