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ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 16:42 I have to admit that some of the comments that Mike made about modern popular culture in his Changeling autobiography really struck a chord with me. He said: “Today, it’s a very different world from when I first started out. The utopia we thought was going to exist in the 1960s, all that was going to carry on and get better. By now we should have colonies on the moon, have abolished poverty, have magnificent art and culture; instead we have grossly obscene, voyeuristic television, smothered in degrading advertising that is an insult to human intelligence. Technology has advanced beautifully but culture has suffered...” I don’t know about you guys, but I agree with him. I guess I might sound like a bit of an old saddo saying this but... when I was a teenager during the ‘70s I used to walk past the local record shop (or even the local branch of WH Smith) and see a whole bunch of different music in the window: there would be Tangerine Dream’s Phaedra, Mike’s Tubular Bells and Pink Floyd’s Dark Side Of The Moon alongside Slade, T-Rex, Bowie and Roxy Music, and classical albums ranging from Beethoven to Bartok alongside modern jazz like Miles Davis and Weather Report. I used to walk up to the window and think: “Wow, I wonder what that sounds like?” But nowadays if kids walk past the local CD shops (or HMV or Our Price) around here, all they see is a bunch of chart stuff. In short, I honestly agree with Mike that things have seriously suffered, partly because culture has gravitated towards product rather than art. But I also agree that technology has advanced amazingly and it’s great that many potentially creative musicians now have access to awesomely powerful home music software studios and don’t need to be influenced by the culture of ‘conventional’ record deals any more. So I think things will improve. What do you think? Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 17:52 Yes, surely technology has improved a lot, but I always thought that it shouldn't be technology for technology's sake, otherwise the end product will inevitably sound empty. There was a time, in the history of popular music, when empty, minimal electronics were highly fashionable and appreciated, and that era produced a couple of acts that are still around now - namely, Jean Michel Jarre and Kraftwerk. But if an unknown musician, today, made a record based exclusively on technology without even a single snatch, a single spark of musical originality, I don't think he or she would manage to get his/her composition across to the so-called "general public" in the same way that JMJ and Kraftwerk did, because, yes, times have changed. Regarding CDs in record shops, well, I think it's pretty obvious that you see only chart stuff in the windows of big shops like HMV - that's the stuff that such shops thrive on. Charts are, of course, extremely important - the very future of an artist's recording career, in today's chart-dominated world, does not depend so much on talent as on how high will the album go into the charts. Yes, it's sad, but that's what the world is today, as The Temptations once sang. Back when Mike recorded TB, you saw all kinds of albums in record shops because album charts didn't really matter back then - what mattered were the singles (45-rpm) charts, and artists who made no singles but only albums made "the news" only when the albums started selling hugely, as TB and Dark Side eventually did. Anyway, in the city where I live there are no big record shops, only small ones. And in the windows of those shops, unless they are highly specialized ones (i.e. classical, jazz, dance) you're very likely to find absolutely everything. I remember distinctly Sting's classical lute album, when it first came out, being placed in a shop window here right next to Depeche Mode and Britney Spears and Sigur Rós. So I guess that it's just a matter of which shops you visit... -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

ex member 419 Group: Members Posts: 1177 Joined: April 2008 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 18:55 Hi, Popular Culture has been transformed by technological change. Whilst communication, media, is instant now, there is a loss of creativity and a need for instant gratification. In the 70s we had to wait for product. These days one can access most media on demand. Society has become less tolerant, nobody is willing to wait for basic things. I agree with Mike and you that what is on tv is voyeuristic content and violence. We have gone backwards as humanitarians imho Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 19:11 I much prefer today's age: this very forum is a product of it. With the internet you can research any piece of music you want in a fraction of a second, and download it for free almost as quickly. It's a godsend, and I wouldn't trade it for the way things were for anything. Mike seems to forget that he almost didn't get his music into the public arena; market forces were the same then as they are now. He owes EVERYTHING to Richard Branson, a man who truly stands out from the crowd. As for colonies on the moon, they looking increasingly promising, given the discovery a few weeks ago of substantial amounts of water ice in craters near the moon's south pole. The problems of a lunar base were always greater than science fiction admitted: the hazards of cosmic rays, micrometeorite impacts, muscle atrophy due to reduced gravity. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 19:14 Quote (ex member 419 @ Nov. 22 2009, 18:55) Society has become less tolerant, Can't agree with that. Compare the situation of gay people now with what it was then. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 19:29 I think you'll always have have a very incomplete view on things if you take the evolution of music as a completely isolated thing, because it's very, very closely linked with the evolution of everything else. Nowadays the radio and television will try to shove their big acts with so much force at you because it's everything they have -- music as a form of art isn't a matter of glamour as it was back in the 70's; say, Pink Floyd revelled in being pretty much deities, yet Radiohead distributed their last album for a price chosen by each buyer. It's not as easy anymore for record companies to keep the intelligent bands on a short leash like Virgin used to do with the likes of Mike Oldfield and XTC: when Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was refused by the record label, the band simply threw the whole album for free download on the Internet, until the label negotiated a new deal. The media has become voyeuristic and obscene? Yes, possibly. But that is consequence (and cause) of innumerable things -- including the fact that you have more choice today than you had in the past. The Internet opens up possibilities that were unimagined back in the "utopic" 60's, and the media is struggling to keep up with that. They don't hold the monopoly anymore. Maybe TV has degraded, but communications overall have definitely improved. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ex member 419 Group: Members Posts: 1177 Joined: April 2008 Posted: Nov. 22 2009, 19:59 Hi, society has become less tolerant. Check attitudes to boat people, youth in urban areas! The ruling class dictate the prevailing social code of behaviour! In reply to Mike's production of TB, Richard Branson had no real creative input at all, but provided the capital needed. Mike needs to be recognised as the owner of his own work! This was denied him for years! Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 00:52 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 22 2009, 19:29) The media has become voyeuristic and obscene? Yes, possibly. But that is consequence (and cause) of innumerable things -- including the fact that you have more choice today than you had in the past. The Internet opens up possibilities that were unimagined back in the "utopic" 60's, and the media is struggling to keep up with that. They don't hold the monopoly anymore. Maybe TV has degraded, but communications overall have definitely improved. Yes, exactly. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 00:57 “Today, it’s a very different world from when I first started out. The utopia we thought was going to exist in the 1960s, all that was going to carry on and get better. By now we should have colonies on the moon, have abolished poverty, have magnificent art and culture; instead we have grossly obscene, voyeuristic television, smothered in degrading advertising that is an insult to human intelligence. Technology has advanced beautifully but culture has suffered...”     He took the words right out of my mouth. I watched the American Music Awards tonight. Miley Cyrus was noticably absent. But I thought......this is what my world has become. Its all so silly. So grotesque. My city, Austin has become a sewer since my arrival in 1980. Humans are now obsessed with the end of their species. It also seems they enjoy it. Doomsday movies (2012 and so many others) are the "in thing" now. Am I depressed? Yes. -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

ex member 419 Group: Members Posts: 1177 Joined: April 2008 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 04:18 Cheer up Jim, at least we have a little escape from reality by communicating in these forums! Quite a nice family with diverse opinions, debate, the odd humorous post! Our little oasis in the desert of the net! Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 06:53 Quote (nightspore @ Nov. 23 2009, 00:14) Quote (ex member 419 @ Nov. 22 2009, 18:55) Society has become less tolerant, Can't agree with that. Compare the situation of gay people now with what it was then. I don`t know you could do all sorts of stuff in the olden days that you can`t do anymore.You could racialy abuse people,and generaly discriminate against them.You could talk down to women and treat them as second class citizens.You could ostracize people from society who did`nt fit into your "normal" criteria .You could generaly knock your kids around a bit when they mis-behaved.. Let`s face it by his own admission Mike Oldfield says he lives in another world.And I`m quite sure that if they ever did get round to building a colony up on the moon,he`d be one of the first ones up there.Of course modern society is far from perfect,but if he was truly walking around in the 60`s/70`s thinking that the future was going to be some kind of Utopia??? Then all I can say is he must have had an even more sheltered upbringing than even I first imagined. Music? There is far more choice of music now than there ever has been,and there is still brilliant and exciting music been made.Fair enough and depending on your own taste it might not be in your local shop window anymore.The fact is though if you turn on your computer there is a whole vast world of music right there at your fingetips.Plus with things like Last FM/Spotify/My Space etc you don`t even have to spend your hard earned cash on it.Yesterday for no apparent reason the song "He`s A Walking Miracle Woo Hoo" came into my head for no apparent reason.I used to really despise that song and once uopn a time it was frequently played on the radio.Nowadays not only is it not played on the radio,the fact of the matter is I don`t even have to listen to the radio anyway.I can choose what I want to listen to myself.At the end of the day I`m sure there were plenty of old folks listening to "modern music" back in the day who proabably thought the whole fabric of society was falling apart. Modern Popular Culture.. I can`t really argue with what Sir M says here,in that there is far far more choice now than there ever has been before.Plus because there`s more choice and the internet has opened up so many more possibilites you get to hear more people`s opinions.You get to hear the opinions of the vulgar,of the ignorant,of the generaly uneducated.You actualy get to see for yourself what society is really like. "Voyeuristic Television" ? When Jade Goody racialy abused someone on a reality tv show over here a couple of years back,she was rightly condemned by the national media.Similarly there`s a show on over here at the moment where one of the "celebrity" contestants offered the opinion that Aids was created by the C.I.A...Again he was condemned by the media,although the actual programme itself decided not to broadcast his ignorance/intolerance.Maybe a lot of people watch these kind of shows because they want to feel better about themselves in some way.But just maybe every now and then when they actualy see themselves up there,they might actualy make a little mental note of improving themselves a little bit.What else do we do,just ignore them and hope they all go away? Go back to Val Doonican,The Black And White Minstrel Show and The Good Old Days?..Gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 07:15 Quote (ex member 419 @ Nov. 22 2009, 19:59) The ruling class dictate the prevailing social code of behaviour! That has been around for centuries! Certainly back in the 60's there were outsiders (like hippies and such) who were shunned by the "normal" society and forced out of its sight. If anything, this has become a little less strong these days. Ok, maybe that's because the "outsider" has become fashionable and the industries are learning to cash in on it. But intolerance? Well, nowadays a black man is far more likely to get a seat on the bus without provoking a naueated reaction from the white lady on his side. Quote In reply to Mike's production of TB, Richard Branson had no real creative input at all, but provided the capital needed. Capital which was refused by many a record company by then. Branson deserves credit, yes, by having the wit and vision to see the potential in Mike's record. That's no mean feat at all -- back then the record industry was no magic, no fairytale. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 14:07 There are a lot of different and equally valid opinions here. But I wasn’t really talking about the political aspects of the way things were back in the ‘70s - there were certainly some awful attitudes around back then that I’m glad aren’t around today… I was just commenting (and I believe that Mike was also commenting in Changeling) on the creative climate. There seemed to be a different attitude to music back in the ‘60s and ‘70s and that was reflected in what musicians were creating. Quite a lot of artists back then seemed to be trying to reach out and create music or sounds that had never been heard before. Mike’s Tubular Bells is a perfect example of that but I could name many other examples… I agree that there’s a huge variety of music readily available now that would have been hard to get in the past, and that’s great – fabulous even, but I just feel that the musical climate isn’t so creative today. Of course, that’s just my opinion and, as Clint Eastwood once said, “Opinions are like a**holes – everybody’s got one!” ;-) BTW, I agree that Branson must have played a huge, huge part in Mike’s initial success. Branson and his associates would definitely have known that Mike’s opus was not conventional chart album material and it would have been a ‘long shot’ in a commercial sense; he must have been as surprised as anybody else at TB’s massive success. Branson stuck his neck out when he didn’t really have to, so I suspect he appreciated TB’s musical worth more than people give him credit for…   Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 16:45 Quote (nightspore @ Nov. 22 2009, 19:14) Quote (ex member 419 @ Nov. 22 2009, 18:55) Society has become less tolerant, Can't agree with that. Compare the situation of gay people now with what it was then. Society has become more tolerant of gays, and people of different cultures, and for that I am grateful. Unfortunately, this attitude of "political correctness" has gone too far (at least here in America). We can't even criticize a president who (in my opinion) is ruining our country without being called racist. Witness the recent Tea Parties that took place across the nation, or the protests on 9/12. I was at one of the Tea Parties, and race had nothing to do with it. It was about taking back the rights that we have been deprived of, and yet it was criticized by some as being a racist event. Or when Sen. Joe Wilson said "You lie" to Obama. I forget who, but someone I was reading stated "...I heard an unspoken third word: 'You lie, boy!'" What the hell is going on...   Back to top

ex member 892 Group: Members Posts: 827 Joined: July 2008 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 16:52 Sorry, hope I didn't get too intense. I just got going... And sorry, ommaGeddon, for getting political again... maybe I should've kept my mouth shut.   As far as creativity goes, it still exists. It just isn't in the mainstream, and you have to dig a little deeper. There are some extremely creative artists out there (Primus, The Mars Volta, and Dream Theater come to mind), and even in the mainstream, you have bands like Radiohead and Muse, which certainly aren't just run-of-the-mill pop groups. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 17:53 The days of quality mass culture are over I think. Back in the 70s TV, papers and radio stations served us a well tempered menu of equal measures sweet and sour. Now sugar is pouring out of all channels and if you want something more demanding you will have too seek out an exclusive restaurant or even cook yourself. The "old media" always (or most of the time) took a responsibility that stood in proportion to the influence it had on society and therefore saved a spot for the more adventurous stuff. In that climate it was natural for record companies to create/sign "arty" pop stars to avoid accusations of populism and to get a bit of "cred". Now there's no need for that. If was difficult to begin with and left the major record companies with 20-album-deals with artists who spent all their money on artsy vanity projects with side-long tracks. The marriage of market research and pop music has left a divide so definitive that there is now a large part of pop music that has no artistic pretentions and is therefore (IMO) unnecesary to even comment on. However, on the other side of the gap the possibilities are endless. There is an audience for just about anything. Nothing is too out there, too weird. But stadium artist treading the middle ground is more and more rare. Bands like Coldplay have tried but they end up as just sounding just like the American Idol type music that they pretend to be the antidote of - only in a minor key. So terribly market researched... I see so many people around me that desperately try to like this or that chart topping artist just because they want to be part of the time they live in. The more obscure stuff won't work in conversation and you won't run into strangers who share your obscure taste in music. Obscure groupd won't make friends for you. Shakira will. Even your kids like Shakira. Doesn't that feel good? Something to have in common... Today a record company wouldn't promote an album like Tubular Bells or sign an artist like Mike Oldfield. However it is now possible to make an album like Tubular Bells in your own bedroom and make the it available on home burned CDRs or as a download from your webpage. But can anyone do it? I don't think so, but I think there are more talents out there than we are made to believe. I think the idea of the artistic genius has been very convenient for major record companies that can only afford to promote a limited number of new artists each year. The Beatles were great but their uniqueness has been blown out of all proportion. And the majors still dream about the 1964 situation; "One world - one band". Lars T -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Nov. 23 2009, 20:02 Quote (larstangmark @ Nov. 23 2009, 17:53) Bands like Coldplay have tried but they end up as just sounding just like the American Idol type music that they pretend to be the antidote of - only in a minor key. So terribly market researched... Tish and pshaw. People have been talking about the good old days since the year dot. Even Socrates did. Bring on the future, just as Mike did with his leap from cosy introspective works to technology embracing works like the MVR games and TSODE (pace Sir M)! Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 02:24 I've had time to think about it and read your comments. I suppose back when bible-belters were burning Beatles records for Lennon's comments and A-bomb videos told people to "duck and cover" if a nuclear attack occurred, there was mass paranoia too. I think it is people like me who need to change. I have seen Austin become as much a mixture of races and cultures as New York was in 1915. But, being so close to Mexico, I have become so intolerant of mexicans. Every mug shot on the news is of one. I am not kidding. Not racism, simple observation. I'm really stuck in the past the older I get. Probably far worse than MO who has had decades of interaction with many cultures. I am very resistant to how fast things are changing. For example, at 48, I take Sylvia to a restaurant. Her cell phone constantly chimes. She then responds with a text, during the meal. THE WHOLE MEAL. She's one year younger than me. I find it incredibly irritating. Now, extrapolating the scenario to me being 24 in 2009, this would be normal. Part of the normal flow of my life(or anyone 24 right now). In 1985, when we went out, we left our phones and others behind(there was no choice). It was intimate or at the least more private. I'm stuck in that nexus, never wanted to leave it.     Going back to the AMA awards show I watched. Adam Lambert shoved a man's head into his crotch on ABC tv. I think censorship went a bit far in the 60's......but I think there is still room for -some- censorship. I do admit to liking porn, some of it. I think things should be allocated on a "need-to see" basis, placed on different "channels".  But on ABC or any network like that I still expect to see standards.......now gone. Gay is "in". Heterosexuals are outdated. Ellen is a powerfull TV force now. No one cares. I guess, old freinds, I feel like a dinosaur. My desires in british art rock sort of made me socially isolated over the years. Certainly it should have worked until about 1990, Amarok time, then I should have become more open to newer forms of music. I did not. A big mistake.     I think I would have been better off if I had been born into the "Country and Western" culture. Strength in numbers. They have each other. As does any culture. "A man without a culture" is a very poor man, now. I can't say I'm ashamed of immersing myself in only classic art rock like MO or Genesis all my adult life, but it did isolate me due to region(Texas). Still, things seemed more dignified in that "genre". I've learned, painfully, dignity is not the answer. It's adaptation and letting your hips swing to Green Day or whatever new comes along. If you can't adapt, you will find yourself alone on Thanksgiving with no turkey or ham. Important concepts for those of you under 40 to embrace right now while you can learn to adapt.     I'm reminded of a scene from my fav. "first generation" Star Trek movie, "The Undiscovered Country". The scene between Kirk and Spock: "Have we grown so old......that we have outlived our usefullness?" You know the scene. I guess that's me, now. The guy who wrote that script, a very noted script writer was obviously trying to convey something in 1991 to those of us in our early 30's. Change is coming(not in the fantasy Trek world, but in the real world). Those who don't adapt will ultimately screw themselves. I hope somebody learns from this very real story. Learn to be eclectic, learn to adapt or God help you. Without a social convoy, a person is empty, homeless. Adapting will build you that "social convoy", and you will enjoy turkey and ham.  Happy Thanksgiving Tubes, Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 03:42 Quote (nightspore @ Nov. 23 2009, 20:02) Bring on the future, just as Mike did with his leap from cosy introspective works to technology embracing works like the MVR games and TSODE You mean bring on the science fiction? Not to be confused with the actual future! -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

ommaGeddon Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Nov. 24 2009, 03:44 Quote (Syd B @ Nov. 23 2009, 21:52) As far as creativity goes, it still exists. It just isn't in the mainstream, and you have to dig a little deeper. There are some extremely creative artists out there (Primus, The Mars Volta, and Dream Theater come to mind), and even in the mainstream, you have bands like Radiohead and Muse, which certainly aren't just run-of-the-mill pop groups. Syd, surely you don’t think I’ve never heard of Dream Theater or Primus before? All the bands you mentioned are certainly creative in their own way but I still think they’re less creative (in a pure originality sense) than some of the guys who were around in the ‘70s. I like to hear stuff I’ve never heard before and I don’t hear much of that any more… Back to top

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