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Topic: Oldfield debate going on at Sound On Sound website< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
ian Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2004, 14:27

There is a pretty long debate going on in the Sound On Sound (musictech magazine) Forum about a statement Mike recently made about bing able to hear the difference.It starts with

"Mike Oldfield, interviewed in One-to-One magazine on the subject of higher sample rates, stated "There is the point that our ears are only so good. I can only just hear the difference if I A-B, A-B and A-B again between 48k and 44.1. I certainly can`t hear the difference to 96kHz, so I don`t see alot of point to it - maybe my dog can hear the difference! - The main advantage of DVD-Audio is the surround."

This post has been going on for nearly a week as it has had great interest.

To access this page,go to http://www.soundonsound.com/   and click on FORUM,then click on MUSIC RECORDING TECHNOLOGY and you will see it in the list of topics.Feel free to join and add your say.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2004, 15:12

If anyone wishes to transcribe any of the replies in that Sound on Sound forum into plain English please feel free. I've never read a purely numerical debate before.
My own personal view is that as long as the music's good then I don't give a f*** about anything else (generaly speaknig of course)
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2004, 17:07

I'm going to jump in without having read all of the debate...
Unfortunately, I don't know how much I can do to explain the issue in plain English as it is a rather technical issue, but here goes:

The process of turning analogue audio into digital relies on taking samples of the level of a sound (I'm going to stick to the standard PCM audio found on CDs and DVD-As here - SACD uses a different method, which while involving the same principles of taking samples, goes about things in a different way). It's a little bit like the way hills are described by contour lines on a map - if you know how far apart the samples are meant to be, you can reconstruct an approximation of the original waveform. The sampling rate is the spacing between the samples - when the audio is sampled at 44.1kHz, the recorder is taking 44,100 samples every second. That bit ought to be relatively straightforward to see, here's where things start to get more complex:
If you wonder how the number 44.1 (the 'CD quality' standard) was arrived at, this is how. It all revolves around what's known as the nyquist theorem, which states that the highest frequency that can be recorded is half of the sampling rate. The thinking behind 44.1 is that the highest frequency humans can hear is 22kHz (indeed for many, it's below this. Incidentally, in case some are confused at this point - the higher the number, the higher the note. 20Hz is a low bass note, 20kHz - 20,000Hz - is a very very high note). The frequency picked is slightly above the hearing limit (which I'll explain in just a second). So that means that Mike has a point, when he says that you'd need hearing like a bat to be able to tell the difference between that and anything higher, right?

Not quite. If a sine wave (that is, a waveform which goes smoothly up and down - the reason for me mentioning this shape of wave is that it represents a pure tone. All other waveforms are combinations of sine/cosine waves at various levels and pitches - try playing with a hammond organ to hear what can be done by combining sine waves like this. I mention all this because, a sound that contains frequencies at say 22kHz - very high treble - will therefore contain a 22kHz sine wave. Anyone wanting to know more should look up the fourier series) of a frequency near the higher limit is sampled like this, we won't have enough samples to properly describe its curve. It's likely instead that we'll end up with something like a triangle wave instead. Why's that bad? Because of what I mentioned before about all types of waveform being made up of sine waves - if we have a triangle wave, we no longer have just one sine wave, but several...buzzy, instead of pure. That could end up having audible effects (though the overtones tend to be filtered out - everything about 20kHz quite often. Even still, the accuracy of reproduction of high frequencies is still at stake)...but they're subtle.

I personally suspect that even if the average consumer's equipment can reveal a difference between high bit rate/high sampling rate audio (and I actually doubt that somewhat), the listeners won't notice the difference anyway. Which isn't to say it shouldn't be done - if the storage space is there for the high quality audio and the equipment can be made as affordable as 16 bit/44.1kHz equipment, then I don't see why it shouldn't be done, to give that extra bit of quality for those who will notice the difference. This isn't to say that's what the industry's motives are - I don't think they really give a monkey's about high quality audio. Still, I'd much rather they put their efforts into tempting the public to buy formats which offer higher quality, than trying to force upon the public formats which lower the quality.
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Q! Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2004, 18:09

Quote (Korgscrew @ Jan. 23 2004, 17:07)
I don't think they really give a monkey's about high quality audio.

considering the quality of modern mastering, i can only agree. unfortunately.


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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2004, 08:37

Cheers Korgscrew for the info, I never was good at physics but I understand enough to get the idea.

What I was really getting at in my last post was that I would much rather hear good music that was badly produced than poor music that was well produced. The old argument between the qualities of the original TB and the 2003 version would certainly be a good example (although obviously TB in any guise is still superb) Of course good music that is also well produced is what we all really want. I was listening to The Lake the other day and not only is it a superb sequence of music but the production is so lush, its so much warmer and deep than any of Mike's recent studio tinkerings. It does strike me that all this modern studio technology, with ever possibility under the sun, just makes it much easier for the artist to get lost in technicalities.
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olracUK Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2004, 20:15

It's that "human touch". To mauch technology, removes a bit of spirit.

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The answer is 42 - but what is the question?
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ian Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2004, 20:19

I agree totally.Too much gear can smother the creative process.From my experience it is better to get to know your gear really well before you buy anything else.Some stuff from the 60's and 70's still sounds good (ie Floyd,Tangerine dream,etc etc) and that was good old analogue tape! ;)
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2004, 20:28

I tend to agree. All this impeccably-crystal-clear production we've been exosed to kinda makes music lose its... edge sometimes (no references to U2's guitarist intended). Ian reminded some 60's recordings that do really sound good, and it is because of that edge. Try giving, say, Meddle (though it's not a 60's album) a production typical to some 00's albums, and you lose half of the impact.

But then again, I'm not a purist, and the technology can certainly give excellent fruits if it is handled with care. Yes, handle it with care. That's what we really need. We need people to tame these technology and extract wonders out of them, like Brian Eno, for example, has been doing for more than 30 years. *cue to Talking Heads' album Remain In Light* That album puts many 90's and 00's productions to SHAME.

But, back on topic, Korgscrew's technical explanations were right on the money. What he said is definitely accurate. Believe in him. :)


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Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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