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Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1868 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 18 2009, 20:46 Ugo has mentionned The Beatles 48 times. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Oct. 19 2009, 00:32 I noticed that. I wish I could be so easily entertained. But after 40 years even(for me), much adored bands like the Doors bore me due to the sheer number of times I've heard it all in....GOD!.....40 years. There's kind of a sense of shock for me now that it has sunk in that albums like Abbey Road and Morrison Hotel are 40YO. I admire his attention span. The reason I bought guitars/synths/etc. in the 80's(that's considered long ago BTW) is because I realised my heroes are disappearing and I need to entertain myself instead of waiting for someone else to. -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 19 2009, 17:30 Quote (Olivier @ Oct. 19 2009, 02:46) Ugo has mentionned The Beatles 48 times. Yes, because I'm not just a Mike Oldfield fanatic. I'm an all-round fanatic. As for the Beatles, blame it on the release of the 13-CD stereo remastered box. @ Jim: if you listen to the ramblings of some blues fanatics who listen to Robert Johnson (I do listen to him, but I'm not a blues fanatic! ), they'd be more than ready to tell you that their favourite songs are more than 100 years old, but do not show their age at all. And the moral of that is (as Lewis Carroll's Duchess would put it) that if you love a song you don't care how old it is. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Oct. 19 2009, 18:37 Ugo, you might really enjoy Sherman Alexie's Reservation Blues, because of its inclusion of long-presumed dead Robert Johnson and the day he shows up at the Spokane Indian Reservation while trying to evade the devil--and besides, it's a really good book. <-: -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Oct. 19 2009, 20:07 Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 19 2009, 17:30) @ Jim: if you listen to the ramblings of some blues fanatics who listen to Robert Johnson (I do listen to him, but I'm not a blues fanatic! ), they'd be more than ready to tell you that their favourite songs are more than 100 years old, but do not show their age at all. And the moral of that is (as Lewis Carroll's Duchess would put it) that if you love a song you don't care how old it is. Well, Schubert's and Beethoven's songs are even older, and they still sound fresh. Listen to Beethoven's "To the Distant Beloved" song cycle. Or some of John Dowland's songs, written almost half a millennium ago. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 21 2009, 18:50 Quote (nightspore @ Oct. 20 2009, 02:07) Or some of John Dowland's songs, written almost half a millennium ago. Indeed. That's why I love Sting's performances of those on his Songs from the Labyrinth album. They almost make me want to learn to play the lute, although I know I'll never get to that. By the way, Schubert and Beethoven didn't call their short vocal compositions "songs". They called them lieder. Although, in the modern sense of the word "song", that's actually what they are, a lied is different from a song. I'm not sure about what exactly the differences are, or where are they, but I know they're different. @ M-C: thanks for the tip, I'll surely look out for that book. Do you know whether it's been translated into Italian? -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Oct. 21 2009, 21:07 Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 21 2009, 18:50) Quote (nightspore @ Oct. 20 2009, 02:07) Or some of John Dowland's songs, written almost half a millennium ago. Indeed. That's why I love Sting's performances of those on his Songs from the Labyrinth album. They almost make me want to learn to play the lute, although I know I'll never get to that. By the way, Schubert and Beethoven didn't call their short vocal compositions "songs". They called them lieder. Although, in the modern sense of the word "song", that's actually what they are, a lied is different from a song. I'm not sure about what exactly the differences are, or where are they, but I know they're different. @ M-C: thanks for the tip, I'll surely look out for that book. Do you know whether it's been translated into Italian? Sting singing Dowland? Gawd! "Lied" is just German for "song". That said, the word "lied" is generally reserved for songs with just piano accompaniment. But the term is loose; and the Beethoven song cycle To the Distant Beloved, which is absolutely triff, has orchestral accompaniment. As for all your Beatles references, Ugo, in my opinion George and John are channeling you!   Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Oct. 21 2009, 21:14 Slight correction: I have an orchestral transcription of the Beethoven lieder; they were originally for piano too. Back to top

Harmono Group: Members Posts: 759 Joined: May 2005 Posted: Oct. 21 2009, 21:25 Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 22 2009, 00:50) By the way, Schubert and Beethoven didn't call their short vocal compositions "songs". They called them lieder. Although, in the modern sense of the word "song", that's actually what they are, a lied is different from a song. I'm not sure about what exactly the differences are, or where are they, but I know they're different. If I recall correctly those old lieds were songs sung by one singer and accompanied by piano. I guess that's pretty much the definition of those early lieds. Later Mahler and others composed  orchestral lieds. But of course, as you say, any song isn't a lied, these are artsy songs, kunstlieder. Edit. Ok, Nightspore said it already. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 22 2009, 16:45 @ nightspore: as I said, I'm not sure about what is the difference between a lied and a song (btw, 'song' doesn't translate as lied in German - it translates as gesang), but it may well be, as you said, that the term lied was strictly reserved, in Beethoven's and Schubert's time, for piano-and-voice 'romances' - concise, chamber versions of opera arias for soloists, which to me have always sounded like elaborate lieder whose lyrics are somewhat relevant [but not always...] to the main plot of the opera itself. In Italian, lied is "romanza", "song" is "canzone". However, I repeat, I'm not an expert on this, so I'll just content myself with what I may learn about it, here and elsewhere... Also, I don't think that George and John are channeling me. If John was channeling me, I'd buy lots of his solo stuff, which I don't have - all I have of him is his Collection from the late Eighties, from which I usually play only one song, "Just Like Starting Over", because I can't believe that someone like John Lennon has managed to write a song like that. So, if I'm really receiving some sort of subconscious influence, that's from all four of 'em, and from George Martin, through the release of the remastered stereo box set of their output. Ah, one more thing: is "triff" the same as great, or fantastic? I think I asked you (nightspore) quite some time ago, but I forgot your reply. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Oct. 23 2009, 03:52 Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 22 2009, 16:45) @ nightspore: as I said, I'm not sure about what is the difference between a lied and a song (btw, 'song' doesn't translate as lied in German - it translates as gesang), but it may well be, as you said, that the term lied was strictly reserved, in Beethoven's and Schubert's time, for piano-and-voice 'romances' - concise, chamber versions of opera arias for soloists, which to me have always sounded like elaborate lieder whose lyrics are somewhat relevant [but not always...] to the main plot of the opera itself. In Italian, lied is "romanza", "song" is "canzone". However, I repeat, I'm not an expert on this, so I'll just content myself with what I may learn about it, here and elsewhere... Also, I don't think that George and John are channeling me. If John was channeling me, I'd buy lots of his solo stuff, which I don't have - all I have of him is his Collection from the late Eighties, from which I usually play only one song, "Just Like Starting Over", because I can't believe that someone like John Lennon has managed to write a song like that. So, if I'm really receiving some sort of subconscious influence, that's from all four of 'em, and from George Martin, through the release of the remastered stereo box set of their output. Ah, one more thing: is "triff" the same as great, or fantastic? I think I asked you (nightspore) quite some time ago, but I forgot your reply. Hi Ugo, according to my German-English dictionary, "song" means "lied" and "lied" means "song". However, "gesang" is also translated as "song". So I've just checked the definition of "lied" in Collins' classical music encyclopedia: "Lied (Ger.) , 'song'. The term has come to be particularly applied to the German romantic songs of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Wolf, Strauss and others but has also been used since the Middle Ages in the more general sense. Special features of the lied are the attention paid to the mood of the words and the importance of the piano part." As for "triff": it means the same thing as "brill"! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 23 2009, 16:54 Well, there you go - you said it yourself, romantic songs. That's why they're called romanze in Italian. Of course, "Romantic" may well refer to the historical period they were written in, but I think that the mood of their time reflected itself in the music. I don't really know many lieder, but the ones I do know are all very romantic. In all senses. P.S.: I absolutely LOVE it when threads on tubular.net go astray this way!! -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Oct. 23 2009, 19:08 Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 23 2009, 16:54) Well, there you go - you said it yourself, romantic songs. That's why they're called romanze in Italian. Of course, "Romantic" may well refer to the historical period they were written in, but I think that the mood of their time reflected itself in the music. I don't really know many lieder, but the ones I do know are all very romantic. In all senses. P.S.: I absolutely LOVE it when threads on tubular.net go astray this way!! Schubert's songs cover such a vast range of subjects and moods that the word "romantic" - in either sense - is pretty well meaningless. Schubert composed about 600 songs and died when he was 31. It makes the output of most pop people look pretty pathetic, doesn't it! For what it's worth, he's considered the greatest of all song writers. His Fair Maid of the Mill song cycle is one of his best known group of songs; but the story they tell is too depressing for me, and Schubert captures that mood so well. Back to top

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