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Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Aug. 08 2009, 03:48 I never heard the term "prog rock" until about 5 years ago. At that time I interpreted it to mean the Art-Rock bands/Artists I love, but who are a part of an aging and vapor-locking group of people who pioneered synths but put their art before commercialism(I was right). I found 80% of my favs were English. When blues-rock started transforming into art-rock or symphonic-rock, that was my fav musical period. As Tubular dot net seems to be revolving so much around TB1-2009, it's time for new threads. I'm bored, Silver is in pain. Just where does MO fit into prog? I was watching the DVD "Pink Floyd Delicate Sound Of Thunder" and it occurred to me to look up this fairly new word "prog". Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prog_rock While I think many other(English) acts have surpassed MO in prog rock, since they put more into concerts/publicity/willingness to tour the USA, history will never forget the name Mike Oldfield. I was curious to see a top ten list of just who caused this 70's wonder of music I miss. My top ten(and these should be PUT IN ORDER) of who you think influenced prog-rock the most: 1. The Beatles(remember George Martin now! 2. The Moody Blues 3. Jethro Tull 4. YES 5. Pink Floyd 6. Mike Oldfield 7. Genesis 8. Steely Dan(USA) 9. Roxy Music 10. Cat Stevens -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Aug. 08 2009, 07:38 Quote (Scatterplot @ Aug. 08 2009, 03:48) 1. The Beatles(remember George Martin now! 2. The Moody Blues 3. Jethro Tull 4. YES 5. Pink Floyd 6. Mike Oldfield 7. Genesis 8. Steely Dan(USA) 9. Roxy Music 10. Cat Stevens Delete Steely Dan, Cat Stevens, and The Beatles (they were foundational, not progressive) and add ELP, King Crimson, and Pavlov's Dog. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Aug. 08 2009, 10:08 Reading John Peel`s book recently he makes some interesting observations on prog.He was never a fan of ELP,Yes and Genesis,although he always championed The Pink Floyd.Who in the strictest sense of the term,maybe were`nt even "prog" at all really by comparison.Making a top ten list is pretty difficult as people like Can and early Tangerine Dream probably need to come into it as well imo.As well as artists such as Gong and Greenslade or Hawkwind even.And then there`s the fusionist brigade who often get lumped into the prog bracket as well like Mahavishnu Orchestra and Return To Forever.Or all those Cantebury guys Henry Cow and Soft Machine etc.Where Mike Oldfield himself kind of sprung from really.It`s very difficult to narrow it down to ten.. 1.Pink Floyd 2.Genesis 3.Yes 4.King Crimson 5.Mike Oldfield 6.Jehtro Tull 7.ELP 8.Soft Machine 9.Can 10.Frank Zappa... Back to top

wiga Group: Members Posts: 2113 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Aug. 08 2009, 16:34 1. Early Genesis 2. Cream 3. Deep Purple 4. E.L.P. 5. Yes 6. Curved Air 7. Mike Oldfield 8. Tangerine Dream 9. Pink Floyd 10. Led Zep. Putting it simplistically,for me prog rock was about breaking out of the 3 minute song. Some actually returned to the 3 minute commercial song when it wasn't financially viable. -------------- Barn's burnt down - now I can see the moon. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Aug. 08 2009, 20:51 I'm not making any lists for the moment, as I don't know enough prog bands to make out a list of 10 - let alone listing them in order. Anyway, MO is not prog, he never was - that's just one of the many labels that have been stuck on him. He went through his prog phase, of course, but not on his own - it was when he did Exposed, with Pierre Moerlen & company. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Aug. 08 2009, 23:55 As far as people who have influenced Prog Rock, you could list a ton, including the Moody Blues, the Beatles, the Nice, Pink Floyd, the Who, and so on and on. As for progressive rock as a label (I don't think it quite qualifies as a genre, to be honest), I think it started with King Crimson, moving on to Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Yes, Genesis, Van der Graaf Generator and such like. What I find quite bizarre is that Jethro Tull was never meant to be a prog rock band, since Thick as a Brick was meant to be a PARODY of the prog movement. I guess Ian Anderson just started to enjoy the whole thing and tried again with A Passion Play, failing quite badly in the opinion of some. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 05:21 I really don't like the words prog rock. Despise them in fact. I like art-rock. I like hard rock. I like acid rock(I've been accused of recording some of it). I like Classic Rock. I like Rock 'N Roll........thats it, I like rock 'n roll foremost.........the magnetic north of all these damn genre labels..... -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

wiga Group: Members Posts: 2113 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 07:23 No, 'prog rock' isn't a pretty term -  feels a bit contrived and fake. To be honest I remain confused as to who is and who is not prog rock. The majority of good artists make tracks that are beyond 3-4 minutes these days, and beyond the usual song structure. So my interpretation is about whether or not a studio album can be reproduced live - or visa-versa.  If it can't, because there is an element of artistic improvisation going on, then I would say that's progressive rock /prog rock. [I cringe when I type - progressive rock or prog rock - true but why? ] -------------- Barn's burnt down - now I can see the moon. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 07:23 @ Sir M.: despite being labelled as prog, to me the Moody Blues aren't prog at all, as the only thing they adopted from prog was the time changes, and they didn't even use them very often. Neither are Pink Floyd - they started with psychedelic music, they ended up as a pop-rock band. And the Who are simply rock, to me. As for actual prog bands, the ones you listed are  just the ones that I actually know well enough to say that they do belong to prog. About Jethro Tull, yes, I do know that TaaB is a parody, but like the best parodies it was done so well that people took it seriously (just like Orson Welles' 1938 radio version of The War of the Worlds). Then, of course, there are the contaminations, crossovers and mashups - people like Dream Theater (and some late 1980s/early 1990s stuff by Iron Maiden), where prog is coupled with metal. It could really go on and on and on and on, as you say. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 07:46 Quote (Ugo @ Aug. 09 2009, 07:23) About Jethro Tull, yes, I do know that TaaB is a parody, but like the best parodies it was done so well that people took it seriously This is the first time I've ever heard it described as a parody, and I read quite a lot about it when I was enthusiastic about JT. (I still quite like some of Songs from the Wood, particularly "Cup of Wonder".) I wonder if Ian Anderson "reconstructed" the meaning of the piece at some later stage? Certainly there are parodic elements in it, but they seem to be directed at humanity itself (eg "the wise man breaks wind and is gone"). In order for the claim that it is a satire of bands like Yes to be taken seriously, there have to be musical signposts in the text itself, and so far as I can remember, without playing it again, there are none. I'm happy to be corrected with regard to this, of course! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 08:10 @ Daniel/nightspore: I can't comment on the presence (or absence) of musical references in TaaB as it's quite a long time since I last listened to it (I must dig the CD out again! ), but I seem to remember that it was intented as a parody of the "concept album" genre, popularized by Yes and ELP - bands which, of course, happened to be prog. So I don't think it's really a parody of prog rock as a genre, but rather of the pretentious nature of (some of) it. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 08:37 I don`t really like labels either,and I particularly don`t like the label "progressive rock".But I guess by making that distinction in itself,tells us why we all tend to do it to a certain extent.And why these labels kind of come about in the first place.If someone where to put five albums in front of me for instance from bands I`d never heard of.And then tell me that one was "Prog" 2.."Punk" 3.."New Age" 4.."Blues" 5.."Power Pop"...Then going off the bulk of my own musical taste,I`d probably go for "Power Pop"..But the fact of the matter is I may well hate the bloody thing,and I might have been better off going for "Prog" I do like quite a number of prog artists after all. I think the main problem with "progressive" as a label today for any newer artists influenced by Genesis or Yes or whoever.Is that there is a tendancey by critics to quickly point out the fact, that you can`t really be "progressive" if you`re massively influenced by music created 35 years ago.In that respect alone "art-rock" certainly does sound a whole lot better.Although if you`re influenced by some obscure alternative band from 30 years ago,or some garage band from 50 years ago they tend to be a little more forgiving somehow.It makes it an easy target for the hypocritical and the narrow minded.And yet in a strange way "Post Rock" is probably more indebted to a lot of "progressive artists" than it is to any other label you could attatch to it.Just be careful you don`t get too complex or throw the odd time signature in there and you might just get away with it.And heaven forbid you start using any "jazz chords" they`ll have yer guts for garters...But I digest. I can remember reading a review for Mike Oldfield`s Five Miles Out album way back in 1982,that said that.."Mike Oldfield is quickly becoming the Status Quo of Progressive Rock"..How many other albums released in 1982 had a whole side of the record dedicated to one track I wonder? Surely on that basis it was one of the biggest "alternative" releases of the year!? RE..Jethro Tull:Ian Anderson always seemed to have his tongue in his cheek to me a lot of the time.But the great thing was he never took himself too seriously either imo.They still stand out to me as one of the most entertaining and interesting bands from that whole period.I think a lot of their albums have stood the test of time better as well,and I still enjoy listening to them immensely. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 09:39 Quote (Ugo @ Aug. 09 2009, 08:10) @ Daniel/nightspore: I can't comment on the presence (or absence) of musical references in TaaB as it's quite a long time since I last listened to it (I must dig the CD out again! ), but I seem to remember that it was intented as a parody of the "concept album" genre, popularized by Yes and ELP - bands which, of course, happened to be prog. So I don't think it's really a parody of prog rock as a genre, but rather of the pretentious nature of (some of) it. Thanks, Ugo. There are a number of tart references to classical music in Thick as a Brick - in the mock newspaper, I seem to remember - but no reference to other rock groups or to the prog rock genre. So if Ian Anderson's intention was to satirize prog rock, it has to be considered in that regard to be a failure, as there are no signposts to guide the listener in that direction. (Compare Frank Zappa's hilarious parody of Bob Dylan in Sheik Yerbouti, where banal observations that could almost be in Dylan's own voice are punctuated by blasts of extremely unmelodious harmonica music.) Back to top

wiga Group: Members Posts: 2113 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 10:30 I'm still talking about the label here... I recently watched an interview with Phil Collins, and he doesn't come across that well actually - he's quite defensive about being married 4 times etc. But when he was asked if he considered his work to be 'progressive rock' he seemed a bit overly keen to be bracketed that way. That got me wondering if some artists see the label as a status symbol. That's where I'm uncomfortable. I should imagine that many talented artists probably wouldn't give a toss how you labelled them - their work speaks for itself. Speaking of Genesis though,  in my mind Peter Gabriel was the mover and the shaker, and probably a modest bloke as well. -------------- Barn's burnt down - now I can see the moon. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 13:50 Yeah I know what you`re saying about Phil Collins,Wiga.I think in defence of the guy he did do a lot of stuff that was pretty "out there" I suppose that tends to get over looked for his more commercial material.I`ve never really been into Genesis at all,but I did enjoy some of the stuff he did with Brand X in the late 70`s for instance.I remember reading a comment regarding Phil once(can`t remember who by)..That the guy could`ve went down the John Lennon route but he decided instead to opt for Paul McCartney.More labels I guess.And we all know how irked Macca can get sometimes when everybody says Lennon was the more experimental/creative force. I do agree with you though Peter Gabriel`s solo material is on a whole different level to Phil`s imo.As a drummer however you can`t fault the bloke.And as a vocalist I think he`s very under-rated as well.Plus I know Jim mentioned on here recently that he actualy prefered a lot of the later Genesis stuff(around the Abacab/Duke period etc) compared to their earlier material.Which although I`m not a big fan of the band as I`ve mentioned, I`d certainly go along with that.He does come over very defensive though.I don`t know if he thinks the world`s got it in for him,or if he`s just not happy BEING "Phil Collins" ?Maybe it`s a combination of both? Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Aug. 09 2009, 17:32 Quote (Dirk Star @ Aug. 08 2009, 14:08) Reading John Peel`s book recently he makes some interesting observations on prog.He was never a fan of ELP,Yes and Genesis,although he always championed The Pink Floyd.Who in the strictest sense of the term,maybe were`nt even "prog" at all really by comparison.Making a top ten list is pretty difficult as people like Can and early Tangerine Dream probably need to come into it as well imo.As well as artists such as Gong and Greenslade or Hawkwind even.And then there`s the fusionist brigade who often get lumped into the prog bracket as well like Mahavishnu Orchestra and Return To Forever.Or all those Cantebury guys Henry Cow and Soft Machine etc.Where Mike Oldfield himself kind of sprung from really.It`s very difficult to narrow it down to ten.. 1.Pink Floyd 2.Genesis 3.Yes 4.King Crimson 5.Mike Oldfield 6.Jehtro Tull 7.ELP 8.Soft Machine 9.Can 10.Frank Zappa... I pretty much agree with that list DS, but I haven't heard of Can.  I would say that The Moody Blues are prog or have had an influence on Prog.  I know Sgt Pepper is regarded as the beginning of  prog , which I think it's had an influence. I think the Moody's "Days Of Future Passed" or The Rolling Stones' "Their Satanic Majesties Request"  are early prog influences.  I think the first prog album would have to be Frank Zappa's "Freak Out".  My ex husband has a copy, I do find FZ a bit way out to my musical tastes.  Most of the "Canterbury Scene" was prog or had an influence on Prog.  However i think there's one omission from that list, and that would have to be Queen. OK so Queen aren't strictly out and out prog, but their early music often had changes in time signature or style. Chek out Doing Allright from Queen album, or from Smile (Brian May and Roger Taylor, along with bassist Tim Staffel) in Smile, as Queen were before the arrival of Freddie Mercury and John Deacon.  Freddie was inspired by Tolkien, as he had been reading Lord of the Rings, when he ame up with lyris to My Fairy King, Ogre Battle, inventing his own land of Rhye.  Or were Queen Glam rock???? I think only Freddie would have the balls to combine elements of prog and glam into Queen, and make it work.  OK I think it was also down to four individuals being in the right place at the right time, as Freddie didn't hit the big time with Wreckage or Sour Milk Sea.  What I'm saying is it was Freddie who thought up the visual image for Queen, also that with Queen they're Queen, you can't really label them into a particular music category. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Aug. 10 2009, 10:49 Quote (nightspore @ Aug. 08 2009, 07:38) Quote (Scatterplot @ Aug. 08 2009, 03:48) 1. The Beatles(remember George Martin now! 2. The Moody Blues 3. Jethro Tull 4. YES 5. Pink Floyd 6. Mike Oldfield 7. Genesis 8. Steely Dan(USA) 9. Roxy Music 10. Cat Stevens Delete Steely Dan, Cat Stevens, and The Beatles (they were foundational, not progressive) and add ELP, King Crimson, and Pavlov's Dog. And The Velvet Underground, of course. One of these days I'll have to check how the CD of the banana cover album (the one with Nico) sounds. On the LP, side  2 always seemed to be much worse in terms of sound quality than side 1. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Aug. 11 2009, 21:16 Well by golly, since I started this thread and most of you participating, I've known a long time maybe you can help identify a virus that has caused me 3 -Complete- system restores on my Windows XP sp2 computer. Thank God for external hard drives!(I know, the virus may reside there, but I scanned it every time, no infection,  main drive C:, yes) Anyway this virus attacks always when I'm online. Thinking about it, it also always happens using Mozilla Firefox which I seem to prefer over Internet Explorer for no reason I can think of. This virus makes the screen wallpaper (I prefer Eddy or a hot babe) turn into a blue background with a red sign saying "Your Computer is infected!" The rest is a circular dead end. It installs an icon in the bottom right corner which continually tells you to click to D/L a no name anti virus program. Clicking X does no good. Saying yes you get a user ID credit card enrollment screen. You can X out of that but it still blocks all applications from running. Except, I can surf the net, and run a virus scan(took 3 hours but after "moving the infected files to the vrus vualt" or deleting them, the lock-up remained. Clever virus. The only one to ever cripple a PC of mine(I've had about 6). So, I'm up again, bare-bones with my fav. minimum stuff re-installed. Any PC experts know this virus? I wish I could have removed it, but it's quicker in the end to pop in the restore DVD. Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Aug. 11 2009, 22:22 A prog rock show in a small town in upstate NY first introduced me to Mike through Incantations when it first appeared (the album, that is, as opposed to the radio station). Ithaca's WVBR also used to have a Sunday evening prog rock show in the 80's that introduced me to such artists as Marillion and IQ. They also played a lot of Mike. Wow--whatever would I have named my oldest daughter without Marillion, yikes???? Or the middle one???   One of the other radio stations did a feature on Genesis in the 80's and said that "Fountain of Salmacis" was revolutionary, advancing rock, and the first time that a guitar solo had been overlaid that way (that is one of my all-time favorite videos--a very unpolished FoS and Phil still had his hair! --very traditional prog rock style lyrical theme--the story of Hermaphroditis, the son of Aphrodite and Hermes.  Around 3:14 and beyond is the section referenced by the program). But anyway, when you listen to FoS, there isn't any doubt that you're listening to prog rock. I may not have missed the term, but I missed the fact until a couple years ago that prog rock continues on, and that there are festivals, that some of the artists (besides Marillion and Fish! continue on, and that there are wonderful new prog rock bands/prog metal bands: Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson; Carptree, Dream Theater, RPWL, Pain of Salvation, Moongarden, Nightwish, the Watch, IQ, Sylvan, Saga....oh...the list goes on and on and on!  The wiki article located here isn't half bad. Pretty sure I've mentioned it b4. Anyway... www.morow.com from Paris broadcasts prog 24/7. The Subterranea in Second Life is the best prog rock club in any world and reality!  You have a combination of prog streamed by DJs (including a couple of folks 'round here sometimes), various prog stations, and occasionally live music performed by the owner (cheers, Moog, if you are here!! ) Great place -- you can listen to music and have real-time conversations about it--or about anything else, too! -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Aug. 11 2009, 22:39 Ah...let me quickly add that while some of the bands rely heavily on the old'uns (e.g., the Watch do Genesis covers and their music sometimes sounds like an old Genesis song that I somehow missed, but isn't because it's there own, new material), bands like Pain of Salvation and Dream Theater are progressive and innovative in every sense of the words.  Moongarden, Galahad, and Sylvan have incredible material -- very fresh, not musty or recycled. -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

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