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Topic: Sincerity and performance< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Alan D Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 12:23

Sir Mustapha has raised a question in another thread about the sincerity of performance which I don't think is an easy one to come to grips with. He takes, for instance, 'diva' singers, who employ 'vocal tricks' insincerely, to make people feel emotions cheaply. The diva sings of heartache, but doesn't really mean it.

Now... I don't have a snappy answer to this, but I think it raises interesting questions about the whole nature of performance, and the issue of sincerity. When a great actor plays a role that moves everyone to tears, does he mean it? If he doesn't, does that mean he's employing cheap tricks? If he does, then in what sense does he mean it?

I raise the parallel case of the actor because he or she is obviously distinct from the character being portrayed. But what about the singer or, indeed, guitar player? Is he or she not also adopting a character, playing a role? Where does cheap trickery end and sincerity begin?
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 13:20

I saw the reply to my comment on the other thread, and it's an interesting parallel between acting and music. From a very, very superficial angle, I could say that the art of acting is meaning what you do not. An actor's role isn't to make us think he is the character (unless we're talking about Brazilian soap operas, which deserve a different kind of analysis, :) ); his role is to be the character, in order to make the story come to life. Of course the audience isn't supposed to think the actor is killing himself - what matters is the story, the performance, and the effort put into it. In a way, he does mean it when he's performing, and using "tricks" or not is a matter of style, I think. An actor who doesn't mean his performance is more likely to come across as superficial.

In music, you could use Peter Gabriel as an example. When he sung "The Musical Box", or "The Return Of The Giant Hogweed", for example, his effort wasn't to be sincere, but to make the whole thing come to life. The difference between "diva" singing a la Whitney Houston and Céline Dion is a bit different, I think. They want to cause emotions in the listeners in the most brutal and direct way as possible. If they don't, they'll fail. They aim at the listeners' biggest vulnerabilities with loud, bombastic arrangements; VERY high, loud and extended notes; and so on.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 14:38

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 17 2005, 18:20)
The difference between "diva" singing a la Whitney Houston and Céline Dion is a bit different, I think. They want to cause emotions in the listeners in the most brutal and direct way as possible. If they don't, they'll fail. They aim at the listeners' biggest vulnerabilities with loud, bombastic arrangements; VERY high, loud and extended notes; and so on.

Now this is exactly the debateable ground. This is where the problems are. Let's take those 'loud, bombastic arrangements; VERY high, loud and extended notes' for example. I'm not happy about the 'bombastic' aspect, because that's too subjective and begs the question; but the rest of it is a description you could easily use to describe the most powerful parts of 'La Boheme', or the climax of  'Gotterdammerung' - both of which are among the greatest musical creations ever made. So we need better criteria than that. Similarly, when Puccini wants to wring our hearts at the death of Mimi, there's no doubt that he wants us to feel those emotions. The music throbs with emotion, and quite right too. So I don't think the intention to make us feel emotion is a bad thing. In fact I'd say it was the primary purpose of any art to make us feel. Don't we all feel the release of bottled-up anger at the end of Ommadawn? Didn't he intend us to?

So what is it, exactly, that makes us suspicious of Celine Dion's 'Titanic' song, or a Whitney Houston power ballad? I don't share Sir M's distaste for them actually - I can enjoy the spine-tingling emotion that they induce - but at the same time I feel that I'm being manipulated, as if the thing is a bit of a swizz, somehow. Where does this sense of insincerity come from?
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 15:32

Quote (Alan D @ Nov. 17 2005, 14:38)
So what is it, exactly, that makes us suspicious of Celine Dion's 'Titanic' song, or a Whitney Houston power ballad? I don't share Sir M's distaste for them actually - I can enjoy the spine-tingling emotion that they induce - but at the same time I feel that I'm being manipulated, as if the thing is a bit of a swizz, somehow. Where does this sense of insincerity come from?

There's one thing that, in my opinion, separates the "diva" singing from the pieces you mentioned, which also make use of loud, high singing and such things: it's the schtick; it's the impression that those singers NEED the endless "woah-woah-woah" in order to sound emotional, because they can't do it otherwise. When the typical "power ballad" needs to achieve "emotions", they all do it the exact same way: violins soaring into the skies, gargantuan drums, children choirs, tubular bells, timpani rolls, either fading out into eternity, or closing with the mellow piano notes. It's almost like the "tear-inducing song prototype" is ready, and just following it is the key to success. Intelligent performers can sound extremelly emotional in different ways, and they also can use that "bombast" in a way that the music deserves it. Mike Oldfield himself always did climactic, bombastic finales, but in most cases they were inevitable and deserved. I started disliking them when they became, in my opinion, gratuitous and predictable. It's not that I dislike the climaxes per se - just the way they used (and many people may disagree, and that's just okay).

Perhaps that's a weak argument. Someone might say that clichés aren't a sign of lack of quality, or else they just wouldn't be used. But I'm convinced that those clichés aren't used because they are "good", but some people react to them because they expect it. If a song lacks the gut-wrenching finale, it's "boring", and so on. And when they hear it, it drives them to tears. But does that make the climactic finale genuinely emotional? Or is it the people who want to react like that, because that's what they're used to?


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 17:01

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 17 2005, 20:32)
Mike Oldfield himself always did climactic, bombastic finales, but in most cases they were inevitable and deserved.

I'm in difficulty over this use of the word 'bombastic' - which means overblown and arrogant. Now, I can't relate to that. There's a world of difference between a piece of music that is climactic, and one that's arrogant, but you're lumping them together. Arrogance is never deserved in the way you suggest here. Arrogance is assumed.

I think you're on much firmer ground with the cliché idea. The use of the ready-made formula - that usually is a sign of dead art and imaginative bankruptcy - unless (as, say, Dylan often succeeds in doing), the cliché is used in such a way that new life is breathed into it.

Of course if you don't make a habit of listening to power ballads (as I don't), then perhaps it would be hard to recognise the clichés for what they are. The Titanic song, for example, doesn't strike me as clichéed because I've never heard anything else like it. Are they two-a-penny, in fact?
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 17:34

C`mon
the beauty is in the eye(and in the ear and in the nose) of the beholder!
No offence, your thoughts are nice but they fall in to the category of perpetualeverlasting questions of philosophy of arts.
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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 17:45

Bombastic boffinery?? I didn't read it, I'm hoping this isn't Johnny Owl part 3  ;)   :D

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When the night's on fi-ya, do you need love's arms to hold yew? :D
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 17:54

Quote (Harmono @ Nov. 17 2005, 22:34)
the beauty is in the eye(and in the ear and in the nose) of the beholder!

We're not talking about beauty. We're talking about sincerity, or artistic integrity. It's something that interests me very much, and I think it interests Sir M also. And if it didn't seem possible to reach some kind of answer, or at least gather some interesting opinions on the matter, I wouldn't have posed the question.
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 17:58

I dont want to be an obstacle.
please continue your conversation, it is interreresting.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Nov. 18 2005, 10:41

Quote (Harmono @ Nov. 17 2005, 17:34)
C`mon
the beauty is in the eye(and in the ear and in the nose) of the beholder!

That pretty much sums up why some people see tear-jerking sincerity in a song that's just a rehash of clichés. It isn't really a sign of "dumbness" or "bad taste", like many people (me included) feel tempted to say, and I won't badmouth those people - they aren't spending my money if they buy Mariah Carey CDs, anyway. :) I'd say that the "power ballad" genre has become a deadly trap long ago, and even when you do pull off a honest performance over the 'clichés' I mentioned before, the sincerity is questioned, anyway. If you do a power ballad like that, it's more likely that you're doing it on purpose (for the "brutal impact") than that you're too naïve to realise the "style" has been beaten to death already. But everything is possible, anyway!

As for the Titanic song, I think the differential lies in its context, since it was made to fit the movie and match the slight Irish touches and the orchestral style of the soundtrack. And the main melody is quite different from the usual.


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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Nov. 18 2005, 11:26

Sincerity is a very big question for me, simply because I find it difficult for other people to detect when i am serious when using my voice. Consequentially, I am quite understanding of when artists intentions are 'misinterpreted' by their audience.

I think the real question comes down to how well the artist communicates the essence, the feeling of what he is trying to convey. There are various ways in which different elements can exact an effect on someone; for example, the way in which the combined ooohs and whistle sound at the beginning of Snow Cavern Flight (BB) immediately make me think of falling snow, and also how that same essence can be played about with to produce something new (as in Ringscape).

The problem that I have with Ringscape is that I feel the extras that he has added over BB's version actually conflict with the feeling of what else is within that track. The organs and power balladising of that tune doesn't sit as well with me as BB's arrangement.

That's what the sincerity is for me; where the track just has to be true to itsself. The Gate would be a good example of that - so yes the idea is simple, but the way in which things are arranged blend well with each other. I don't think 'ooh, that would have been better about 50% of the volume', or 'Jeez, where did that bagpipe come from!'

Also, Mike has said recently that he has been trying to play more emotively. Do you all think this necessarily computes? do you find more feeling in Tr3s Lunas and L + S than in, say, TSODE? Or QE2? Personally I find Islands the most insincere album, which is probably why I don't like it (but I do, of course, love TWC). That feels most like 'musak' to me, but then, we have heard on here that the Islands period was a relatively dark time for Mr Oldfield.

Theres my thoughts.


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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Nov. 18 2005, 12:50

So we're agreed that sincerity is important; what I'm still a million miles away from understanding, though, is how we recognise the sincerity - or indeed, the lack of it.

You mentioned Ringscape Arron, so let's look at that. At about 2 minutes in, something that sounds like a saxotar (can someone tell me if I'm mistaking that?) plays a haunting, plaintive series of notes that just tears me apart. It has a quality of feeling of the kind that I might get if I looked up at the night sky with that inexpressible longing that it sometimes induces - beautiful, sad and poignant; something to do with the sense of being small, fragile and mortal, but confronting the infinite.

Now that little bit of saxotar has the taste of reality to it - of real feeling, from the heart. In there somewhere is the essence of what I mean by sincerity. I feel as if Mike felt something like that himself - distilled it into pure musical liquor - and passed me the glass to drink it from. That's as close to the real thing as I can get, in art. At that moment all the talking stops, because the music answers all doubts.

Is it enough merely to feel the sincerity? Is it impossible to find a rational explanation for it?
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Nov. 18 2005, 13:09

I think now you got into the thick of it. The best "rational" explanation I could give is what I said millions of times before: it lies in the listener's mind - but at this point, that's too superficial. The scary thing is that, maybe, there's no explanation. Who will ever know if Mike really meant that? Maybe the solo just came out by pure chance, and he won't be able to tell what he actually meant with it. So, all we can do is make assumptions. I'd say "whatever floats your boat", and let it rest. But whether there's any rational explanation for it leaves me without words.

--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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