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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Aug. 30 2006, 09:55 Minority interest coming up - but I mention it just in case.... In the 1920s & 30s Edward Elgar made a number of recordings (on 78s of course) of his own works, conducted by himself. If you like the Englishness of Elgar's music (and you might, if you like the Englishness of, say, Hergest Ridge), then these are well-worth listening to - and they sound quite a bit better than you might expect. Many years ago I had quite a lot of these recordings on cassette (recorded from the radio in a golden week of historic Elgar transmissions), but a few days ago (while planning a visit to Malvern) it occurred to me that I really must replace them with CDs. Then I got a shock. You can buy almost anything on CD these days (eg 'Meet the Searchers' in both mono and stereo on the same CD, for goodness's sake! ). But a large number of these great historical recordings by Elgar are no longer available. Some are - but how the rest have been allowed to fall out of print amazes me. Anyway, in my quest, I discovered that an enterprising person in Ireland has done a remarkable public service by transferring the whole of Elgar's recording of his 2nd symphony from 78s, cleaning up the files, and offering them as a free download (the music is apparently in the public domain). So... if you want to wind the clock back to 1927 and hear 40-odd minutes of Elgar himself conducting his own great second symphony, here's where to go: Trinity College, Dublin,  Audio Archive. Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Aug. 31 2006, 09:14 Thanks for sharing this Alan . Was that recording really made in 1927???, sounds so clear, I'd expect a recording from this period to have more "snap crackle and pop" than a bowl of Rice Krispies,  still the wonders of modern technology. I've downloaded the first track, think I need to free up some space on my computer to download the rest (or increase the size of my PC's virtual memory). I'd burn this onto a CD , but my antique computer doesn't have a burner.   Yes I think there's something quintessentially English about Elgar's music, as there is with Hergest Ridge.   I wonder what it is that inspired both Elgar and Mike to create such fantastic musical works.  I think  it's having a highly creative mind , also inspiration from amazing scenery. I think the scenery on the Worcestershire/Herefordshire/Welsh Borders is the amongst the most spectacular in the UK .   Quote Alan D   Posted on Aug. 30 2006, 14:55 You can buy almost anything on CD these days (eg 'Meet the Searchers' in both mono and stereo on the same CD, for goodness's sake! ). But a large number of these great historical recordings by Elgar are no longer available. Some are - but how the rest have been allowed to fall out of print amazes me. I don't really see the point of putting mono and stereo mixes of the same album together, as after all stereo sounds so much better, yet there's so much great music that's was/is now out of print.  I guess it's up to us music buying folks to try and put pressure on the record companies to re issue it. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Aug. 31 2006, 11:30 Quote (moonchildhippy @ Aug. 31 2006, 14:14) Was that recording really made in 1927???, sounds so clear, I'd expect a recording from this period to have more "snap crackle and pop" than a bowl of Rice Krispies, Indeed it was. Elgar made some purely acoustic recordings earlier than this which are pretty hard to take, but this one, and quite a few others were made after electrical recording became established, and the results are astonishing, I agree. He was old by the time he made these, and a very unhappy man - he'd lost his wife, to whom he was devoted - but the making of these recordings gave him a new sense of purpose, I think. I like to imagine him there, in front of the orchestra, conducting these authentic versions of his greatest works, and recapturing the vision of English landscape that had always inspired him. The files are not so big, Galadriel, are they (though they take a while to download on dialup)? About 3 or 4 M each - there are about 12 of them, so maybe 40M altogether. If you're short on space, have you tried using Disc Cleanup on your hard drive? (Start - My Computer - Right click on C: drive - Properties - click on 'Disc Cleanup' button - and clear out what is suggested). If you haven't used cleanup for a while, that should clear out some space. (Virtual memory shouldn't make any difference to this, I think, even if your machine is an old one. It would only be a problem when running things like games, where lots of data is being shifted back and forth, quickly.) Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Sep. 11 2006, 11:20 Well, last week found me sitting in the garden of Elgar's birthplace, near Worcester (see photo here), listening to his music on headset in the sunshine, and pondering on the curious sense of place that I associate with certain composers - Elgar being one, and Mike Oldfield being another. I was already a long-time fan of Elgar and Vaughan Williams when I first heard MO, and as soon as I heard Hergest Ridge, I recognised that same sense of Englishness that I found in Elgar and VW. When you go to Hergest Ridge, you can feel the music somehow inherent in the landscape, and the same is true of the Malvern Hills, and Elgar. This photo, taken at the top of the Worcestershire Beacon looking south along the ridge of the Malvern Hills, seems pure Elgar to me. Elgar himself talked about the music being in the air around him, and all he needed to do was take it, and I'm surprised that Mike hasn't said something similar about pieces like Hergest Ridge and Ommadawn, which seem to draw so deeply on the landscapes characteristic of the English/Welsh border. There must be a technical musical reason for all this I suppose - but how and why a certain arrangement of notes and harmonies should evoke such a strong sense of place seems a deep mystery to me. Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 11 2006, 16:03 I must say I haven't allowed myself to get into the music of Elgar that much, aside from his most well-known works. Vaughan-Williams speaks to me a lot more with 'The Lark Ascending' being my all-time favourite work of classical music, along with Debussy's 'Prélude a l'après-midi d'une faune'. Speaking objectively and analytically, one music book I had quoted a passage from the second Enigma Variation which likened the boyant melody to the varied intonation of the English-speaking voice. It is an idea that can possibly be bought into. For me too, I have always likened the distant Solina synth strings in Hergest Ridge to the high winds you get atop a hill. In the oboe section of Part One where the trumpet plays a melodic phrase on top, it reminds me of looking at the distant fields from the views you'd get up there. This could be because I had the original LP for a long time with the picture of bootleg on the back partly looking out onto the view and came to associate the two. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Sep. 11 2006, 16:19 Quote (Jammer @ Sep. 11 2006, 21:03) I have always likened the distant Solina synth strings in Hergest Ridge to the high winds you get atop a hill. I think the answer (if there is an answer, and if the question really is a question) lies somewhere here, at least partly. It's not so much the actual sound of strings themselves (you don't get the 'landscape' effect with Haydn, for instance, no matter how many strings he uses) as the way they're used - and I think you're right that this does seem to bear some kind of relation to the sound of wind in different moods: wind in the grass, wind in the trees. In fact Elgar said once that 'the trees are singing my music - or am I singing theirs?'. But you're right, too, in supposing that other instruments - trumpet, oboe etc - also make crucial contributions; and it's not easy to see why they should evoke Englishness, particularly. But they do. But hang on, let me play with this a bit. If you take Sibelius's use of strings, he too evokes the effect of wind - but this is a wind sweeping across snow-clad hillsides, and is obviously Scandinavian and not 'English'. I wonder if there are certain note sequences that are common in Scandinavian folk song, and that they have something to do with it? Vaughan Williams is steeped in folk song as is Mike Oldfield; and is it that? That there are certain note sequences and harmonies that dredge things up from our folk-imbued subconscious, so that we respond to a kind of archetypal Englishness that we're not always conscious of? Incidentally, I'd better explain that I'm not talking here about the blatantly patriotic Englishness of things like the Pomp and Circumstance Marches, with Elgar. I'm talking about the haunting pastoral works like the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, the Cello Concerto, the Piano Quintet and the String Quartet, and parts of the symphonies, which are so evocative of the English landscape (and in that sense, not a million miles away from Vaughan Williams). Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 11 2006, 18:01 I didn't really mean evoking the sound of wind through strings sounded English altogether. To that extent there are similarities between Mike's Solina and the string writing towards the end of Sibelius' 'Tapiola'. There are certain tonalities, particularly modal ones, that make something sound quite folky. For instance, most of the melody of Hergest Ridge part one can be played using the white notes of the keyboard (if you start on G). In comparison, the tonality of Haydn and Mozart was all about adherence to scales and much use of sharpened sevenths. It's interesting how Elgar found direct inspiration for his music in his surroundings. I wish the same could be true for me. It probably involves a great deal of knowing how to listen to them. Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Sep. 11 2006, 20:42 Quote (Alan D @ Sep. 11 2006, 16:20) Well, last week found me sitting in the garden of Elgar's birthplace, near Worcester (see photo here), listening to his music on headset in the sunshine, and pondering on the curious sense of place that I associate with certain composers - Elgar being one, and Mike Oldfield being another. I was already a long-time fan of Elgar and Vaughan Williams when I first heard MO, and as soon as I heard Hergest Ridge, I recognised that same sense of Englishness that I found in Elgar and VW. When you go to Hergest Ridge, you can feel the music somehow inherent in the landscape, and the same is true of the Malvern Hills, and Elgar. This photo, taken at the top of the Worcestershire Beacon looking south along the ridge of the Malvern Hills, seems pure Elgar to me. Elgar himself talked about the music being in the air around him, and all he needed to do was take it, and I'm surprised that Mike hasn't said something similar about pieces like Hergest Ridge and Ommadawn, which seem to draw so deeply on the landscapes characteristic of the English/Welsh border. There must be a technical musical reason for all this I suppose - but how and why a certain arrangement of notes and harmonies should evoke such a strong sense of place seems a deep mystery to me. Wow those photos are fantastic Alan ,thanks for sharing . I think reading the posts in this thread has led to me playing Hergest Ridge,  I feel when I play HR I'm immediately transported to The Ridge,  I can imaging standing atopThe Ridge ,wind blowing on my face and in my hair, just feeling the untamed power of nature   .  Like wise when I play Elgar I can imagine Sir Edward cycling around the lanes on the Worcestershire/Herefordshire borders.   I can imagine a composer/musician being inspired by his/her surroundings.  Led Zeppelin III  had it's beginnings at Bron-Yr-Aur,  a cottage in South Snowdonia  then with no electricity or  gas or mains  water.   For a pic see here   www.stryder.de/bronyraur.html More info here www.bbc.co.co.uk/wales/mid/halloffame/showbiz/ledzeppelin.shtml The music on Led Zeppelin III would say has the most organic /earthly/folky feel of all their albums, which was obviously inspired by the rustic feel of the cottage.  LZ III I would say is my favourite of all LZ albums, as it has "Tangerine" ,"That's The Way"  and the folkyness  of "Gallows Pole"  and the foot stomping  catchiness of  "Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp" the beautifully amazing "Since I've Been Loving You", which I think surpasses Stairway To Heaven   . If you don't have LZ III in your music collection, I strongly reccommend buying it     . -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Sep. 12 2006, 04:16 Quote (Jammer @ Sep. 11 2006, 23:01) It's interesting how Elgar found direct inspiration for his music in his surroundings. I wish the same could be true for me. It probably involves a great deal of knowing how to listen to them. Living where you do, Jammer, I'd expect to hear something like the sound of waves crashing on rocks in your music, now and then. Has that never influenced you? Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Sep. 12 2006, 04:18 Quote (moonchildhippy @ Sep. 12 2006, 01:42) The music on Led Zeppelin III would say has the most organic /earthly/folky feel of all their albums, which was obviously inspired by the rustic feel of the cottage. Well, you've got me interested now. Thanks, I'll look it up. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Sep. 23 2007, 05:20 There's never been a better time to be an Elgar fan, than now. Elgar was born 150 years ago, and there's been a flurry of books and cd releases related to that anniversary. Particularly notable among the CD releases are these: Orchestral works box set, conducted by Barbirolli This is a 5-disc set, available at the above link for less than £9. Sir John Barbirolli was one of the great Elgar interpreters, and here you get his versions of all the major orchestral works for less than £2 per disc. Another great Elgarian was Sir Adrian Boult, and you can get a box set of all his versions of Elgar's major choral works here: Choral works conducted by Boult That's 6 CDs for under a tenner. I've never been able to engage with the choral works to the extent that I have with the orchestral stuff, but now with this on my shelf, I can keep having a go knowing that it cost me very little. If you want to add to that a wonderful 2-disc set (an old favourite of mine) of the hauntingly beautiful chamber music, you can't do better than this: Violin concerto and chamber works Relatively pricey at £6 for the 2 CDs!! But you get the violin concerto as well as all the major chamber works, and fine, fine, sensitive performances of all of them. If you want music that allows you almost to feel the wind on your cheeks and hear it in the trees and the grass, to feel that sense of longing for something beyond the usual, beyond the visible, then I know of nothing better than Elgar's music to provide it. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Feb. 13 2008, 10:12 I just came across another remarkable Elgar bargain set. This is a collection of all Elgar's major orchestral works recorded by Sir Andrew Davis with the BBC Symphony Orchestra - modern recordings made in the 1990s with good, clear, spacious sound. It's a 5 CD set with a nice booklet, and at the normal price of more than £20 I wouldn't be drawing it particularly to anyone's attention. But it's currently available from many of the sellers on Amazon Marketplace at around £7 or less - about £1.50 per disc even when you've added the postage. The performances, from what I've heard so far, don't in any way reflect the low price. I knew already that Andrew Davis's recording of the second symphony has attracted some acclaim, and I've been listening today to the 3rd CD in the set (Cockaigne Overture, the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, the Serenade for Strings, and the Enigma Variations), and they are superb. If you're looking for a cheap way of getting hold of most of the best of orchestral Elgar in good, modern recordings, you could do a lot worse than this set. Back to top

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