Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

Pages: (2) < [1] 2 >

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Topic: Sound Levels in Concerts< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: April 23 2005, 13:04

I'd really appreciate some opinions on this.

I don't go to many live shows, but something has struck me very forcibly during the last couple of years. I think my last three live shows were: Dylan at Birmingham, November 2003; Steeleye Span at Southport, December 2004; Alanis Morissette, April 2005 (I think I've left another Steeleye show out but no matter.)

At a Steeleye show the music is powerful and loud when appropriate but always coherent and articulate. It's exciting and dramatic and inspiring, and the sound quality is usually superb.

By contrast Dylan's shows have been getting steadily louder year by year since 2000, and at Birmingham in 2003 he succeeded in producing the most appalling and frightening racket I've ever heard. The volume level totally defeated any attempt on his part to sing or play well. Nothing could be heard except a great wall of noise, and I was seriously worried that it would damage my ears.

Alanis Morissette last night was almost as bad. It was so loud, and the distortion so severe, that it could have been anyone singing, really. You could identify the songs, but there was no possibility of enjoying them as music.

OK now I know I'm piling on the years and my eustacian tubes aren't as flexible as they once were. But dammit I'm still younger than Bob Dylan! And I know about loud, and the need for rock and roll to be loud. But these levels we're hearing now - do they make any sense to anyone else? Am I supposed be excited by the prospect of possible permanent damage to my hearing? (It took two weeks for my ears to stop whistling after Dylan's show in 2003, and I'm again somewhat concerned about the state of my hearing today as I write this, still deafened the day after the Alanis show.)

I'd really like to know what people think. Please.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Baggiesfaninessex Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 682
Joined: Mar. 2002
Posted: April 23 2005, 13:51

Alan, I appreciate what you're saying. I would be interested in knowing the venues of the three concerts you have compared as I feel that the venue itself, influences the sound levels more than I previously imagined based on previous experience. I say sound levels as opposed to volume levels, as every venue is unique and whoever sits on the mixing desk is faced with a virtually different challenge each evening.

My last three gigs were Yes at Wembley Arena, The Polyphonic Spree at London Astoria and Porcupine Tree at London Astoria too. Both the Spree and the Tree were very well handled with the sound managed sufficiently that quality was not compromised by sheer volume. However, with Yes, it took the sound engineer around 40 minutes until it started to sound half-way decent. Now given their experience on the road and the fact that a group like Yes wouldn't employ just anyone to mix their complex tapestry of sound, then the only reason I can conclude for the poor quality, is the size of the venue - something I seem to be becoming far more attuned to as I get older.

Give me a gig at a smaller venue anyday. I love the Astoria. I never thought I would shy away from arena gigs, but I just don't think they are value for money anymore.  :/


--------------
“A dog is not intelligent. Never trust an animal that's surprised by its own farts.” - Frank Skinner
Back to top
Profile PM 
The Big BellEnd Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 971
Joined: Jan. 2004
Posted: April 23 2005, 14:04

Know what you mean Alan, know what you mean, over the last twenty three years I have seen Alice Cooper in concert sixty eight times, that's a lot of gig's right, of course I expected it to be loud but I still was'nt prepared for just how loud it was, I mean it's Alice it's rock it's gonna be loud. At first it was no problem it was part of the show and being there was more than enough, any way at one gig at Whitley Bay I  was stage left floor level, the speakers where bang in front of me and the whole show was pure torture, the sound stopped being sound after a few minutes and turned into compression on my lung's with every note ,sometimes it was hard to catch my breath as the speaker's kicked the air out of my chest, anyhoo finger's in ear's I stuck it, but never again in that situation, to cut along story short Alan from then on in depending on where I would be at the gig, Ear plug's, it may not sound very rocknroll but it has saved me old lugholes from what I'm sure would be permanent damage, believe me their not uncomfortable and the sound qaulity is improved beyond compare. PS I did also notice that during every gig after two third's of the way in it actually increased in volume,,, even more reason.

--------------
I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: April 23 2005, 15:40

Quote (T4 @ April 23 2005, 18:51)
I would be interested in knowing the venues of the three concerts you have compared

I've only ever seen Dylan in arenas  but at Newcastle arena in 2000 the sound was perfect; Manchester Evening News arena in 2002 was pretty good, but too loud for comfort towards the end). Birmingham was literally frightening. The only pattern here is that he seems to get louder with time.

Steeleye these days only play small venues - last time it was Southport Arts centre which probably doesn't seat much more than 1000. But wherever they play the sound is always good.

Alanis was at Manchester Apollo - smallish venue, 3000 or so. There was simply no need at all for the kind of volume we were getting. I read today that she didn't do a soundcheck beforehand - well ok but you'd think the guy on the mixing desk could have got it at least roughly right after a couple of songs!

I must say I'm quite relieved at the response from you guys - thank you. I thought maybe I was turning into a crusty old grump! But maybe I have a legitimate complaint after all!
Back to top
Profile PM 
raven4x4x Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1535
Joined: Jan. 2002
Posted: April 23 2005, 20:24

Well, I haven't been to all that many concerts, but none have been what I would consider ear splittingly loud. When I saw Yes last year it was a similar situation to the one T4 described: the first half was just a little too loud, but the second was good. I agree with Alan, Steeleye Span was perfect. Both of these concerts were at reasonable small venues.

In about a months time I am off to see Nick Cave, and it shall be interesting to see what the volume levels are like there.


--------------
Thank-you for helping us help you help us all.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Korgscrew Offline




Group: Super Admins
Posts: 3511
Joined: Dec. 1999
Posted: April 24 2005, 10:50

This is something which Mike has spoken out against in the past, and he makes a conscious effort (together with his front of house engineers, of course) to keep the sound levels low enough for everyone to be able to enjoy it.

There's not really much of an excuse for it either - it's not like it's technically necessary for any reason (when you're at arena level, having to turn the band up loud to be match the level of the drums is no longer a valid excuse!). It can make people ill if the sound is too loud. The speakers should also be arranged so that they give a reasonably even coverage across the audience, so that the people at the front aren't getting blasted while those at the back strain to hear what's being played - that's why they're often flown in clusters (that is, tech-talk for bolting them together and hanging them from the ceiling!).

I almost always take earplugs. There are a few venues where I know the sound is never too loud, and so I don't take them when I go to them, but otherwise, they're always in my pocket. Same goes for when I'm playing - I obviously prefer to be able to keep the on-stage volume sensible, but sometimes it's not possible, so in they go...same with rehearsals, those can get very loud, when you're crammed into a fairly small space with a drummer like Animal from The Muppets (which isn't to say that other musicians aren't equally to blame for high volume levels - just that unlike amplified instruments, acoustic drums have no volume control, but still seem to be very easy to turn up to 11). Generally it starts off with just me wearing them, then after a few rehearsals, the rest of the band start appearing with them too - like The Big BellEnd said, it might not seem very rock and roll, but it's better than going deaf.
Back to top
Profile PM 
hiawatha Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 2391
Joined: Mar. 2004
Posted: April 24 2005, 13:20

My poor cloth-ears were shredded to rags for two days after that David Bowie concert.

--------------
"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
Back to top
Profile PM 
TOBY Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1562
Joined: May 2002
Posted: April 24 2005, 14:46

There seems to be a very fine line between concerts which are too loud and concerts which aren't loud enough. It depends on who you go and see and what type of music it is and the quality of the PA. I went to see the Chemical Brothers play Carling Academy in Glasgow a few months ago. The Academy recently had an overhaul and a state of the art PA put in and the sound quality at the gig was amazing and very, very loud, I seriously worried about the structural integrity of the building at certain points in the gig, but it did sound amazing. But thats the difference between dance music and guitar based rock. Dance music is always very bass orientated which to my ears isn't nearly as painful as normal rock bands which are always more 'trebly'. It's those high end frequencies you get off electric guitars which always go for my ears

I've been to hundreds of gigs over the years and do now have noticeable tinitus especially in my left ear. The strange thing is I notice it a lot more after going down to my local pub to watch some pub band than I do at big concerts. I hate small crappie PA's turned up full volume, they're the worst for your ears.
But you do want concerts to be sonically impressive otherwise there's no point. If for example you go and see MO play Tubular Bells at the Royal Albert Hall you want to hear the clarity and detail in the music but you also want to be blown away by the big musical climaxes. There's a fine line between the two.
Back to top
Profile PM 
The Big BellEnd Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 971
Joined: Jan. 2004
Posted: April 24 2005, 14:59

PS, I forgot to mention as well when I was younger I also thought that you had to have a gallon of beer before a concert, huge painful mistake, thank god for the drum solo, nowaday's I find a well conceled spook to take a nip out of now and then is far more pleasant.

--------------
I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: April 24 2005, 16:00

Quote (TOBY @ April 24 2005, 19:46)
But you do want concerts to be sonically impressive otherwise there's no point. If for example you go and see MO play Tubular Bells at the Royal Albert Hall you want to hear the clarity and detail in the music but you also want to be blown away by the big musical climaxes. There's a fine line between the two.

I agree completely with this. That's why I mentioned Steeleye Span's shows in my post. They get it exactly right every time. So did Dylan (more or less) until recently.

But there is an enormous jump to the kind of wall-shaking levels I'm talking about. It's not just a matter of fine tuning. I'm talking about a whole scale of magnitude difference, from 'perfection' up to 'WARNING: not suitable for humans'.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Ratty Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 386
Joined: Jan. 2005
Posted: April 24 2005, 16:55

All i can add to this is based on my concert experiences during the late 80`s / early 90`s. I t was the era of large outdoor concerts such as U2 (maine road, elland road etc) Simple Minds @ Milton Keynes bowl, Rolling Stones in Leeds (roundhay park) My point is that they played these outdoor concerts to get as many in as possible ie 60+ thousand but the sound was abysmal, no accoustics, terrible sound balance, you couldnt here if you were at the back. However, we all loved them..it became a bit of a status symbol at the time...the bigger the concert!!!! Good times those.  ;)

--------------
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells
Back to top
Profile PM 
Korgscrew Offline




Group: Super Admins
Posts: 3511
Joined: Dec. 1999
Posted: April 24 2005, 19:22

Quote (TOBY @ April 24 2005, 19:46)
Dance music is always very bass orientated which to my ears isn't nearly as painful as normal rock bands which are always more 'trebly'. It's those high end frequencies you get off electric guitars which always go for my ears

Yes, definitely. The bass is the stuff which hits you in the gut, but it's the upper mids and some of the highs which really get you in the ears. There's often a very fine line to be drawn though, as some of those frequencies (between around about 2 and 4kHz) are the ones which make the vocals intelligible. That's a good reason not to crowd that range with guitars and cymbals, actually...
Making the mix mid-heavy can make it very hard on the ears, not least because our hearing is most sensitive there.

Quote
I hate small crappie PA's turned up full volume, they're the worst for your ears.

There we come into another phenomenon - distortion.
Actually, I mentioned part of the problem with small venues before - drums. Put an acoustic drumkit into a small room with a strong and enthusiastic drummer behind it and it can be incredibly loud all on its own. Add in a band trying to be heard over it and you have a recipe for the familiar ear-bleed scenario. With the drums, you've already got the hi hat and snare kicking out a good amount of midrange energy (in precisely the range where our hearing is most sensitive), then the cymbals bring more mids and highs to the party. Then what happens? Along comes the guitarist with his Marshall stack, on which he's already turned up the highs so he can sound like his idol Steve Noodlesteen (or whatever his name is), and of course, bucketloads of distortion, which then introduces a load more high frequencies in. Things go wrong from there on in, because of course, the singer will then go and stand in front of the drummer, leaving the vocal mic pointing at the drums, which are really the last thing that need to be amplified. The guitarist might also sing too, and he'll have his Marshall stack right behind him so he can hear it, and where it points straight into his microphone. Because of all that, nobody can hear the vocals, so they turn the PA up louder, which of course ends up amplifying the drums and guitar yet more too. That then pushes the underpowered amp and rather suspicious speakers too far, and they start to distort - perhaps only mildly, but enough to make the sound even more harsh than before. Couple that with a reflective room where the sound just bounces around, and you have a recipe for serious pain (and also for wildly howling feedback).

The trouble is that a really good PA can cost way more than most gigging bands can (or want to) afford - you could spend many thousands of pounds (or indeed Euros) on getting a good, clear sounding rig just for gigs of that size, and that's before considering things like microphones, which can of course also have a bearing on the clarity of the sound. Things like the dispersion pattern of the speakers is important as well, otherwise you can end up throwing lots of the sound out into the wrong place which, if you're indoors, will bounce back a little while later, not helping the clarity at all, but raising the overall sound level and making it hurt more (that's part of the reason for having speakers in clusters - each speaker will generally be designed to project out a fairly narrow beam, so they can then be arranged in an array which projects sound out to where it's wanted, instead of just throwing it out all over the place).
It's the same with home sound systems - good, clean power costs money, but it's a lot less painful to have a quality hifi system kicking out a loud but even signal than it is to have a cheap radio blasting out over a narrow band of frequencies (and usually by the time you've got the wanted frequencies to the level you want them, there are unwanted ones higher up or lower down which are louder)...luckily most cheap radios don't go that loud.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Taurus_Outcast
Unregistered





Posted: April 25 2005, 16:54

the best gigs are in small venues, i feel the acoustics are alot better. Recently (in the last 6 months) ive seen Ocean colour Scene twice (once at the Birmingham Academy, and once at Wolves Civic Hall), Paul Weller (Wolves Civic), Robert Plant (Warwick University). All small venues, however brilliant sound quality.  Ive been to quite a few large venues like the NEC etc, but they dont do it for me, dont get me wrong, the attraction is great but the atmosphere and often sound quality suffers.
Back to top
Ecco Offline




Group: Musicians
Posts: 229
Joined: Nov. 2002
Posted: May 19 2005, 06:25

I agree with your sentiments. I really resent having my ears damaged by artists that I support, and I certainly don't want to end up like Pete Townsend!
I don't agree with some of the others here regarding the arena being wholly the culprit. eg, I saw Mike a few times during the 5MO tour in the US and one show was pristine while another sent me and my companion fleeing half-way through the set (not Mike's fault).
Pink Floyd, through the years, have played arenas and up until Roger Waters left, had pristine sound at comfortably loud levels.
(The Wall concerts in particular sounded like listening on fine headphones).
I think alot of it has to do with the battle of who can be the loudest. You can hear this in the Cd releases over the last few years. Artists and non-artists are sacrifycing dynamics for volume, as the commercial world dictates.
The closest concert that both Julie and myself have experienced that was both loud and pristine were the "Eden" and "La Luna" tours from Sarah Brightman, whose producer/boyfriend was the producer for Enigma. Again, they often sited Pink Floyd as inspirations for their concert ideals.

But yeah, we avoid concerts also out of concern for our ears, a sad situation.
Tony


--------------
http://www.myspace.com/twilighttide
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: May 19 2005, 09:48

Yes - I don't believe it's a venue issue at all. The Dylan shambles was, it's true, in a big arena. But Alanis was in a small venue (max 3000), where there was simply no need for anything like the volume level they used.

Are the sound engineers now so deafened after years of exposure that they don't realise what they're doing? Can we sue? (I'm only half-joking. I still have tinnitus and distortion in one ear, one month after this show. It's very distressing.)
Back to top
Profile PM 
Tres Lunacy Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 7
Joined: May 2005
Posted: May 20 2005, 18:39

I cannot be the only tubularboard attendee that was present at the Jean Michel Jarre Docklands extravaganza in the late 80's. The concert was ultimately succesful due to the fireworks and unique venue. The quality of the sound was not a possitive factor that night and at times the lack of working speakers and low volume almost ruined the event.

Most of the comments that I have read here seem to be in favour of reduced volume and I agree there is nothing worse than involuntary deafness as a result of poor sound management. However, I have to say that both of the Oldfield concerts that I have been lucky enough to attend (Edinburgh and NEC) both suffered at times from a lack of the "goosebump factor". You know what I mean. You are approaching your favorite bit of Oldfield magic and suddenly your headphones cut out or the hi fi malfunctions and cuts the volume in half. Sometimes you need to get the wave of sound washing over you to fully appreciate the emotion that a piece of music has to offer.

My advice....

Pump up the volume and drown out the "i'm not a real fan but like to attend concerts" person next to me discussing the mileage that he gets out of his Golf GTI
Back to top
Profile PM 
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: May 21 2005, 06:13

Quote (Tres Lunacy @ May 20 2005, 23:39)
Pump up the volume and drown out the "i'm not a real fan but like to attend concerts" person next to me discussing the mileage that he gets out of his Golf GTI

My original post, and my complaint, is not about a volume level that's loud enough to drown out nearby chatting people. I'm talking about a level that's an order of magnitude higher than that - a level so lunatic that my companion couldn't make herself heard even by shouting as loud as she could directly into my ear.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Tres Lunacy Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 7
Joined: May 2005
Posted: May 23 2005, 17:50

Yeah fair point Alan D. Nowt worse than ringing in the ears for two days after the event. I know some people that actually take cotton wool to concerts...... :laugh:
Back to top
Profile PM 
The Big BellEnd Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 971
Joined: Jan. 2004
Posted: May 23 2005, 17:54

tell them to take ear plugs

--------------
I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Ratty Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 386
Joined: Jan. 2005
Posted: May 23 2005, 18:15

Quote (Tres Lunacy @ May 23 2005, 22:50)
I know some people that actually take cotton wool to concerts...... :laugh:

I took a sheep to one concert, set up my own cottage industry, made a fortune selling cotton wool!!     :D

--------------
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells
Back to top
Profile PM 
29 replies since April 23 2005, 13:04 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Pages: (2) < [1] 2 >






Forums | Links | Instruments | Discography | Tours | Articles | FAQ | Artwork | Wallpapers
Biography | Gallery | Videos | MIDI / Ringtones | Tabs | Lyrics | Books | Sitemap | Contact

Mike Oldfield Tubular.net
Mike Oldfield Tubular.net