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bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Nov. 29 2007, 17:45 I'm reading Stephen Fry's autobiography of his first twenty years, 'Moab is my Washpot', which apart from the title ( the reason I chose it) is a very enjoyable read for many reasons. I love the way he writes so concisely and how he loves to use the English language. His recollection of quite early childhood is incredibly detailed and I don't feel he has made it up, he seems to have one of those memories that can capture the tiny details of life perfectly. And he can conjure wonderful scenes in your head as you read. By all accounts he's not had things easy and it's quite painful to read at times but it is extremely funny. I do recommend it. The reason I am writing this is because I was really pleased to read this next paragraph. (He talks of his time at school and how different music of the time was enjoyed by his contemporaries, and how he really always preferred the spoken word, especially comedy. He naturally discovered Viv Stanshall and The Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band at this time, amongst others. And he shows a great respect for Viv) ..."Most people will know his voice from the instruments he vocally introduces on Mike Oldfield's otherwiese entirely insrumental album Tubular Bells, which sold in its millions and millions in the early 1970s and founded the fortune of Richard Branson"... Nothing we don't already know, but for me it was so good to hear that Mike has a place, a significant place dare I say, in the memory of someone growing up at that time and who is rather well known today. Ofcourse he doesn't say whether he actually likes the album, but I'm not bothered about that, he felt it necessary to actually mention it and that's fine by me Infact, that's pretty wonderful! Stephen Fry also said something else about music generally that I found very much true to my own feelings.He spoke about his sadness at his apparent inability to learn to play music... "Music is the deepest of the arts and deep beneath all arts. So E.M.Forster wrote somewhere. If swimming suggested to me the idea of physical flight, then music suggested something much more.Music was a kind of penetration. Perhaps absorption is a less freighted word. The penetration or absorption of everything into itself. I don't know if you have ever taken LSD, but when you do so the doors of perception, as Aldous Huxley, Jim Morrison and their adherents ceaselessly remind us, swing wide open. That is actually the sort of phrase, unless you are William Blake, that only makes sense when there's some LSD actaully swimming about inside you. In the cold light of the cup of coffee and banana sandwich that are beside me now it appears to be nonsense, but I expect you know what it is to be taken to mean. LSD reveal the whatness of things, their quiddity, their essence. The wateriness of water is suddenly revealed to you, the carpetness of carpets, the woodness of wood, the yellowness of yellow, the fingernailness of fingernails, the allness of all, the nothingness of all, the allness of nothing. For me music gives access to every one of these essences of existence, but at a fraction of the social or financial cost of a drug..... ....Other arts do this too, but other arts are for ever confined and anchored by reference. Sculptures are either figuratively representative or physically limited by their material, which is actual and palpable. The words in poems are referential, they breathe with denotation and connotation, suggestion and semantics, coding and signing. Paint is real stuff and the matter of painting contains itself in a frame. Music is the precision of its form and the mathematical tyranny of its laws, escapes into an eternity of abstraction and an absurd sublime that is everywhere and nowhere at once..... he says a bit more, but I won't go on, just go & find a copy of the book for yourself! ( And I shall always be indebted to Alan D on this board for bringing to light the idea of quiddity as mentioned by Stephen Fry, some time ago in a different subject - concerning Amarok I think- I had never encountered it before but it's something I'm very interested in, thanks Alan!  ) Back to Stephen Fry, I just felt he did quite well put into words some kind of indication of the power of music, it's mystical and almost guiding power. Whatever your preference, the music you choose to listen to effects you, and connects with you, the very essence of you at a very deep level. I couldn't live without it. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Nov. 30 2007, 12:31 Oh this is really, really interesting, and I have lots to say - but no time just now to say it! How frustrating! I don't think music is 'the deepest of the arts' as Stephen Fry says, though I know that many people regard it as so, and perhaps many here on this forum would agree. I think all the arts serve a similar basic purpose, and that music is perhaps the most accessible of them. So many people do indeed 'get deeper' through music than any other art form - sometimes I do find that myself -  but I think that's because it's more widely accessible (for some reason), not because it actually goes deeper. However, that's really a side issue. The really interesting part of your post, Tracey, is this business of quiddity and how we perceive it. I'd go so far as to say that it's one of the major issues of human existence, but it's going to take a while to explain why I think that's so. When Colin Wilson (author) was a young man, he came close to committing suicide; but at the very moment that he was about to do it, he received a sudden insight: that what he wanted was more life, not less. What was so unsatisfactory was that his life was so impoverished. He didn't actually want to lose it, he wanted  it to be richer. The question is - how do we make it richer? How do we lift it above the humdrum and feelings of pointlessness? The way we engage with the world is through our perceptions, in conjunction with our imaginations. What the arts do (or at least, what they can do) is to inform our imagination, so that our perceptions are enhanced. That means we become more aware of the essence of things - that 'quiddity' that Stephen Fry talks about. If you've absorbed the art of Constable's paintings (for example), heard certain types of music, and/or read certain pastoral poems, then when you look at grass bending in the wind (or trees, or clouds, etc) you experience it more fully. You get closer to the essence of it, because you're able to see different facets of its existence. You get closer to the quiddity of grass. Something like Tubular Bells has a quiddity all its own - the glorious thing about it is that it not only creates itself as you listen, but its structure also (because it's a work of art) guides you into the essence of it. Tr3s Lunas (I mean the total concept as MusicVR, not just the music) does something very similar. There is nothing else like Tubular Bells. There is nothing else like Tr3s Lunas. When we enjoy them fully, we're revelling in their quiddity - the essence of what they, so distinctively, are. And that appreciation, when it occurs on a deep level, seems to fill our lives with meaning. When we're fully engaged with the quiddity of something 'other' (whether blade of grass, or piece of music, or whatever), we're extending our awareness - our connections with the world - and being more fully human. So much to say, but I have to stop there for now. Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Dec. 02 2007, 16:35 Music is certainly the most accessible of the arts, and I think that is part of the very reason why it is crucial to our existence. In a way it is the quiddity of us, our humanness. And the arts are too , but I think less so. You could argue forever about which is the 'best', but there would be no satisfactory conclusion for all. We have so many different points of view, a poet may feel that poetry completely conveys simple or complex messages, and that would be true, but not for everyone. A play or a piece of literature may provoke thought on how we live, relationships etc but if you are not familiar with the language or are unable to read then it is not as effective, though perhaps a little. Music is hard to ignore. It has a universal voice. I'm in no way reducing the importance of or implying that other art forms have less to say - it's just that the older I get the more I feel music has the answers, the other arts ask the questions perhaps, but it is music that has the answers. ( ??? ) I'm not a musician (much to my regret) but what music can do for me as an individual, and as I see it's effect on people across the world, through time, and in all aspects of their lives, is I feel the very heart of what I was trying to say. Music runs deeply through our collective conscious, and subconscious, we use music at significant times in our lives - to celebrate, to mark events, to summon people, announce people, for happy times, sad times, to relax to, to sell things, to give comfort, it also groups people together giving them a reason to gather and share. It 'physically' makes us move as in dance, it makes us want to move. I have never seen that in any of the other arts, and that's quite a key point to this quiddity thing, life-movement. I know poems & literature, paintings & sculptures also have this allure, drawing the viewer in, but it is music that cannot be ignored - you can turn away from a painting and not see it, but a sound is there surrounding you, even getting inside you. I am quite a visual person and really appreciate the visual arts, but I'm beginnning more & more with each passing year to 'feel' ( coz I simply cannot think of another suitable word) that music is above it all, it came first and will be here last. BTW, I was shopping the other day in a town where there is a fair amount of young people - a proportion of who seem pretty aimless in life- just hanging around outside the shops, they do look a bit intimidating and there's been a lot of trouble with theft, alcohol, drugs etc and the police have been called frequently etc etc, I happened to notice the shop seemed fairly empty for once & I became aware of music playing, Vivaldi's Four Seasons - Autumn it was, and I thought how lovely! Then,... how curious? When I asked why they were playing it when normally it's the usual piped rubbishy music, the lady informed me it ws to " get rid of the yobs outside ". I didn't know whether to laugh or cry! Music as a deterent. How would poor Vivaldi feel? His beautiful music used as a weapon, as a threat? As I walked outside the shop, I saw that it had worked though, there were no youngsters hanging around.   -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 02 2007, 17:50 Quote (bee @ Dec. 02 2007, 21:35) You could argue forever about which is the 'best', but there would be no satisfactory conclusion for all. That's why I said I thought it was a side issue. It would be a shame (and entirely fruitless) to get caught up in a 'which is the best art form' kind of discussion. (Personally, I'd find it impossible to choose, because painting, literature and music are all equally essential to me.) No matter - I think the really important thing is not which of the art forms brings the insight, but that some art form (doesn't matter which) brings the insight. (I prefer 'insight' to 'answer', because usually what is discovered leads to more questions, more searching.) The real importance of what Stephen Fry is saying, for me, is that he's acknowledging the importance of gaining insight, and enhancing our engagement with the world, through artistic experience. That's very refreshing, to see that so forcefully expressed. For so many people the arts are entirely confused with pleasure, and the whole business revolves around 'what I like', for them. But that isn't what I, or you, or Stephen Fry, is talking about at all. Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Dec. 02 2007, 18:28 Quote (Alan D @ Dec. 02 2007, 17:50) (I prefer 'insight' to 'answer', because usually what is discovered leads to more questions, more searching.) Yes, that's what I was trying to say. It just feels important to me, this music. And whichever way I look at it I still keep coming back to it having a prime position. Maybe I could say it is the root of art. Music is sound. Words are sound too. Colour ( if we think of painting ) has a resonance that we pick up on and can then identify. Everything comes back to this vibration, this physical phenomena. Music and life. Animals and dare I say it, plants  respond to music. If music doesn't hold the answers, perhaps it is the key to further understanding, or access to another level? I'm just thinking aloud here. Not sure if I'm making any sense. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 03 2007, 03:54 Quote (bee @ Dec. 02 2007, 23:28) whichever way I look at it I still keep coming back to it having a prime position. Well, it obviously has a prime position for you, because it's clear from everything you say that it takes you 'deeper in' than any other art form does. I'm not arguing with that - I entirely believe you. I'd just be uneasy about making a generalisation from that. I find that what I get from different kinds of art is a different kind of insight; the things I get from paintings, or from literature, are things that music simply can't give me - and vice-versa. And although there are times when a piece of music will shake me to my roots (I am so immersed in Elgar at present that my head is full of his music all the time), there are other times when a particularly penetrating passage of writing will have me pacing the room with excitement at the importance of what I've just read. And the way I experience landscape has been profoundly influenced by a whole stack of painters like Cezanne, Monet, Constable, Turner and so on. I just think we're all different - and thank goodness for that, because here we're talking about the most important thing of all - the quiddity of each other!. As Stephen Fry would put it: the Tracyness of Tracy. In other words, that very essence that is so characteristic of you, which includes your ultra-sensitive response to music and your conviction of its importance - is a central part of the wonder of the whole deal. Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Dec. 03 2007, 18:02 I want to say more, but have run out of words.............I am thinking and listening -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2007, 03:58 It's interesting, I think, that we each picked up different things from what Stephen Fry is saying - or at least in different degrees. Your response was (let's say) 25% related to 'quiddity', and 75% to 'music'; whereas mine was the other way round. I think that's because I'm primarily concerned with how to enhance the richness of existence by opening those 'doors of perception' that Mr Fry talks about, and I don't really care all that much which art form takes me closer to that goal; whereas you (I think) are more driven by the depth of your response to music because that's the chief opener of the perceptual doors for you, and you want, primarily, to understand the implications of that. At least, that how it seems at the moment. Part of the point of these discussions is discovering what we really do think. Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2007, 08:58 Alan, that's absolutely spot on, and I am amazed that you have been able to sum it all up so accurately & succinctly...I'd have gone on & on & on & tied myself up in a web of words! I've got to go back to work now, g r o a n, but hope to make time tonight & have another think about this. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2007, 19:01 Thinking on from earlier today, it's true to say that I have these incredibly strong feelings/sensations/responses to music and at times they do startle me in their intensity. It's not every time I listen to anything, but it is more frequent than not, and it's kind of intoxicating. I wonder about them a lot. It's like moving away from now and going somewhere else and somehow coming back with insight or understanding, or confusion! I do not know where these feelings come from. I was thinking about when in your life music ( or any of the arts ) begins to become important to you. Perhaps it's true to say that in adolescence, when you're discovering who you are, what you're about, that's the time when it all really starts. It's a time of wanting to know more, and also wanting to move into the next phase of your life. Lots read, draw, listen to music , many play sport, join clubs for all kinds of interests, but I'd guess the thing they all have in common is that they all listen to music. It's something you can easily remember about your own teenage years. It might make you cringe to recall what you used to listen to ( I certainly do ), but I think there's always a fondness there too. A time of innocence about to change forever. It links generations and I think that's important. It gives an identity to a time, as do the other arts too, ofcourse. I still think music has the edge because it speaks a language we all subconsciously understand...need, even. The thing I most love about visiting galleries or any where I've never been before, is just listening & looking around, sensing the atmosphere and then trying to identify what is it exactly that is 'calling' to me. I sound like an absolute nutcase, I know. And I'm beginning to get tangled in my word wide web a bit, but experiencing what's around us makes us more connected with something much bigger. I think. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Dec. 06 2007, 07:16 I remember reading a quote from Stephen Fry once where he said that a lot of classical music made him feel quite nauseous to the point of being physically sick in fact.Would be intersesting I suppose to see how he reacted to Mike`s latest album then..   "So just how classical does this album sound then Mr Fry?" Of course Stephen got to fulfill his ultimate "Vivian Stanshall fantasy" recently when he got to narrate/sing some of Viv`s parts during the Bonzo reunion gigs.Sounds like a good book btw. Bee,I think you sum it up best for me when you say that music speaks a language that we all subconciously understand.And as you quite rightly add imo "need even".I think this has best been highlighted for me when I`ve listened to certain pieces of music with good friends etc.Sometimes a glance between two people triggered by nothing more than mere sound going into the air says everything for me.Often to a piece of music neither of you may have ever heard previous.I think Mr Fry could be onto something.. Back to top

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