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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: April 05 2006, 14:32

I decided to try Tai Chi a while ago, the book was impossible to read whilst trying to do the positions, so I got two DVDs. I haven't thoroughly explored them yet, but I have tried several sequences, it works for me! :)

Mike mentioned learning it in the L+S interview vid, do you suppose he made some music to use when doing it? Perhaps he uses Terry's (his brother) Yoga music instead? :D

How many private pieces do you think Mike has made?

+ Have you tried Tai Chi, what do you think? :)


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TOBY Offline




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Posted: April 05 2006, 15:41

Haven't tried it, not really my cup of tea, but I can see its appeal. Mike did say he got heavily into it round about Voyager time, tracks like Wild Goose Flaps its Wings were apparantly writen as Tai Chi back ground music - and it shows.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 05 2006, 15:45

You'll find a bit of Tai Chi in Tr3sLunas (the game).
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Wayfarer Offline




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Posted: April 05 2006, 16:01

Hi there.

According to an interview on spanish radio 'Cadena 100', back in 1996, Mike said track "Wild Goose Flaps its Wings" was inspired in a Tai'Chi movement of similar name.

So maybe you should try Voyager ;)

-- Wayfarer


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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: April 05 2006, 16:18

Quote (Wayfarer @ April 05 2006, 21:01)
According to an interview on spanish radio 'Cadena 100', back in 1996, Mike said track "Wild Goose Flaps its Wings" was inspired in a Tai'Chi movement of similar name.

So maybe you should try Voyager ;)

Aha! Twas the third MO album I bought! I can see why WGFIW would be a good track for Tai chi. :)

I haven't heard much of Terry Oldfield's music, but I know he made an album designed for use with Yoga, so I might get that :)


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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: April 05 2006, 21:24

I started taking my Mum to Thai Chi classes 4 weeks ago. She is 75 and the class is all senior citizens so I expected to just sit and watch but it was so lovely I decided to join in. (Luckilly now there is one other lady my age in the group). It is so beautiful. I  have thought about bringing Voyager in for the class. While I never actually considered whether Mike was inspired by the Thai Chi movements, I can never remember the very similar name of one so refer to it as 'Wild Goose flaps it's wings'. There are 24 basic movements and it will be a long time before I know them all, it is so simple but as you want to do it properly to get the full effect, there is a lot to concentrate on besides the hand movements, ie: your feet and your breathing. I want to be able to do it with my eyes closed one day. My only complaint about the class is that one old lady always turns the music down to barely audible. I would have thought they would be turning it up, not down! We stroke the donkey, punch the monkey (that doesn't sound too serene does it) and I learnt how to do a dragon swimming the other day. It is good for the arms and helps me with my very bad balance that I have had since I was a child after suffering from ear infections, I can still fall up stairs!! and I tend to walk into people. Mum is loving it too, she couldn't even lift her arms above her head when we started. (She has to stop saying 'shit' though when she loses her balance, it's embarrassing! )

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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: April 06 2006, 12:00

Great story Tracy, good luck with it! :)

Have you seen the Brett Wagland and Fontane Lp programme? It says on the DVD case that it was the first of its kind in Aus. :)


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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: April 06 2006, 14:10

Do Twining's have it on their menu.

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Sydslittlebiscuit Offline




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Posted: April 08 2006, 07:58

I did one session of Tai Chi, and it killed my knees, but I would expect after practising it a while, as with yoga you would reach a new sense of well being.  Having done Wing Chun Kuen in the past, it has some relaxation principles to it, which you practice to merge the mind with the body, with some relaxation techniques I have done in the past, I have been able to experience out of body moments, which were quite far out :-D I think its a great thing for Mike to be doing :-)

Sue x


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maria Offline




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Posted: April 08 2006, 14:22

i started learning tai chi at university and after some time, i was given the chance to teach it. i became very involved and worked for several sports centres in madrid during the two last years of my degree. there was a moment in which i thought i could devote my life to it. i felt so lucky because teaching i was really learning... four or five lessons a day was a lot of practice and thinking about it. i felt really good, during some time.. later it all became a contradiction for me.
going from one gym to another (in madrid) was crazy, added to my daily trips to the uni and exams and all that.. made me feel stressed. tai chi became a "job" and it lost sense. there was a moment when i came to think i was living in the tube. i gave up teaching, even doing it on my own for some time. i had a sort of crises regarding tai chi. i decided i would just teach friends for no money, and that's what i've done since then (well.. a drink is always  welcome.. :D)

but despite this, from my experience, tai chi is one of the most complete and rewarding exercises i've ever done. it is soft movement, but also, depending on the style and your aims, it can be a hard physical exercise. it's great to gain flexibility, balance and strength on the legs. and something i love about tai chi is that is good for people in all ages and proved to be perfect as an exercise to recover from ilnesses.

thebell(end), i think it might be even more pleasant and easy to learn if u had the chance to do it with someone, if there's some place around u to go for lessons. a dvd could be a good support to improve once u've learnt from someone who can help u to understand, to *feel* the movements.

Quote (Sydslittlebiscuit @ April 08 2006, 07:58)
I did one session of Tai Chi, and it killed my knees

maybe u put too much preasure on them for the first session. one advise i was once given to keep the knees in a good position is: the tip of the knee mustn't get forward the tip of your foot. as farthest, they can get aligned because if the knee goes so forward that u can't see the tip of your foot, it can be hurt.


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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: April 08 2006, 16:13

Quote (maria @ April 08 2006, 19:22)
thebell(end), i think it might be even more pleasant and easy to learn if u had the chance to do it with someone, if there's some place around u to go for lessons. a dvd could be a good support to improve once u've learnt from someone who can help u to understand, to *feel* the movements.

That would be great! :)

Unfortunately, I live out in the sticks, so no centres providing such a service. :/

The DVDs are good enough for me though, really. I would imagine Tai chi in the woods would be a truly relaxing experience! :D

I'm going to memorize each sequence, tomorrow. I'll implement them in the sun :cool:


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moonchildhippy Offline




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Posted: April 08 2006, 17:40

I'm not entirely sure what the difference between Tai chi and yoga is.  I remember buying a yoga video a few years ago,  some of the movements felt more painful    :(  than relaxing.  I've found I like aqua aerobics as a way of keeping fit  :), need to loose a few pounds  :O.   Need to get fit to get up Hergest Ridge, when I next visit there.  I seem to be attracted to hilly places, any hills round here are molehills compared to The Ridge.

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Sydslittlebiscuit Offline




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Posted: April 08 2006, 19:59

Hi Maria,

I would imagine doing Tai Chi intesively would be defeating the object, and doing too much of anything isnt good, so I think you did the right thing cutting back and teaching friends etc. I have pretty weak knees anyway as I have osteoarthritus so it would be a lot more painful for someone like me that someone who is normal in a sense.  I have found pilates pretty good for what I have.  I just have to be careful with putting pressure on my knees as the bone seems to shift about and can be agonising.  Shame really as I suppose you could really loose yourself in breathing and the slow movements.  When I did Wing Chun Kuen, we did this warm up exercise which was called Sil Lim Tao, which was basically standing with your knees turned in, like holding a goat, kinda stance, and you would do these slow hand movements, really like tai chi, for say around 20 mins, concentrating on breathing, you would be concious of the pain in your knees but also kind of ignoring it, weird state of being but helpful in overcoming pain with concentration and relaxation.

Sue x


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 00:52

This is such an interesting topic.  In that Mike does T’ai Chi, maybe as fun project or as a warm up to THE BIG ONE of three, he could get together a T’ai Chi DVD orchestrated to his music. I’ve seen T’ai Chi performed, but not enough to get a sense of what of his existing music would work well with it. Actually, other than determining what music he’d not have to be that involved—just sort of oversee it a bit. Wouldn't want to get him too sidetracked. ;) I have a "how to" video around here someplace--weird, but I think it's with David Carradine. AIR, the music was dreadful and a turn-off.

TBE--Maria is so right that it can be beneficial to do in person. Is T’ai Chi is like other pursuits, in that if you’re a little off in the way that you’re performing it, you can hurt yourself? If yes, doing it in the presence of a teacher would minimize that risk—s/he can correct what you’re doing and return you to the right path. Guess that’s why I’ve tended to take riding lessons and dance when I can. I need the riding instructor to yell at me, “Heels down! Toes in!” The dance instructor: “Too much turnout!”  Learning middle eastern dance primarily through DVDs with very little in-person has been challenging. Thankfully, there are instructors on the way! So….TBE….even though you’re in a rural area (I am, too), maybe eventually T’ai Chi will come to your nearest community. It’s so popular, perhaps there is hope (for here, too).

TubularBelle, I loved reading your story. So nice to be able do something like T'ai Chi with your mom.

Moonchildhippy—Maria can speak better to the difference between T’ai Chi and yoga that can I, but can't resist adding two strawberries. There are yogic exercises, but yoga is also a spiritual path that can encompass all aspects of your life. I used to follow the path of Surat Shabd Yoga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surat_Shabd_Yoga  At least in our group, there was very little focus on exercises other than breathing in meditation.  Well….I fell off the path. On the other hand, I have friends who take yoga as a workout that is divorced from yogic spiritual tradition. I started doing yoga like that when I was about 14. Stuff that I’ve done is sustained. You get into one position and stay there for awhile--probably to meditate, but like you, I found them uncomfortable and I'd basically medidate on how sore I was, lol. Lovely for balance, though—guess it has that in common with T’ai Chi. I had thought that T’ai Chi is more fluid—you’re not tensing your muscles the way you might with yoga (many versions are “soft” according to the wiki-p http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi   ), but wow...from what Sue said, 20 minutes of a sustained stance.... is it the difference a bit in the positions and the meditation component, then?

Sue—I am soooo sorry to hear about your OA. I have a few years on you and also suffer from osteoarthritis in my right knee (basically from screwed up surgery 6 years ago) and meantime severed my ACL in my left knee. I haven’t bothered to have it repaired and consider that one to be my “good” knee. I have bone spurs that have grown in the right one, added to the meniscus issues. I thought surgery was going to be the answer this past fall, but the orthopedic surgeon actually recommended against it. I still dance, run, and cycle. I am even thinking I’ll need to teach my kids to play tennis this summer. I’m usually aware of my knees, and more so if I go a day without a work out. Every study out there suggests that one is better off exercising than not (so it's good you found something to do that works better). I’d try T’ai Chi in a second if it were locally available. I do run and dance braced—not when I cycle, though, so maybe I'd do TC braced, as well. I religiously do the exercises the doc prescribed years ago (a series of leg lifts tightening the quads—I place 8 lb weights on my ankles). I seldom take any pain relief for it (drink 1/2 c. of unsweetened cherry juice each day). I was up to running 7.5 miles on the treadmill, averaging over 5 mph, lately. Not what I have been used to, but not bad. In addition to that, I may “walk” a few extra laps at 3.7 to 4.0, but have found I’m actually more comfortable running. I like the treadmill because the arm thingies can lend support. Well….on either Tuesday or Wednesday, I was 6.5 miles into 7 miles when I fried the thing. It had less than 400 miles and I practically set it on fire! So...tomorrow, Sunday, I am hitting the road, a bit scared that I’m going to get stranded with the knee, but I’m going to do it anyway. Think I’ll bring the cell phone, just in case. Hmm....now where is that T'ai Chi video that's kicking about someplace 'round here? :/


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Sydslittlebiscuit Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 03:11

Hi Inkanta,

I really admire you still pushing forward and still living your life, with dancing, biking etc :-)  That must of really annoyed you to have your knee screwed up by an operation I have only been able in the last month to get my life back together.  Because I have other complications like PCOS - which causes weight that affects my osteoarthritus, diabetes, sciatica etc, its been a hard struggle.  Basically my front knee cap has worn to the side and thats what makes it painful, being on the slightly heavier side doesn't help, it got that bad a month back, I had to order my groceries off the internet, I couldn't go out, especially when the sciatica flare ups happen.  I was driven to dispair really, I thought if I don't do something about this soon I am going to be dead within a matter of years.  So I just started researching on the internet and came accross pilates, which was perfect.  Although I find weight really hard to shift, I am eating properly, tend to have a lot of blended fresh fruit drinks, rather than sandwiches etc.  I love to walk, but if I do too much of that I get hot aches for hours to the point of tears!  I like going swimming but being on a low wage I can't always afford to go :-( Any suggestions he he!  I really want to do an exercise that basically can help shed the pounds but I can do it at home, I am totally lost really.  I used to love dancing, but thats a definate no no!  Really pilates is the only one I can think of at the moment  :O  

Sue x


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Tansy Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 05:58

I have only ever given thought to the benifits of T'ai Chi,but did practise yoga in a big way for quite a long period of time once.Being an all or nothing kind of person,I began with a book found at a local library & progressed to advanced.It's unbeleivable what the more "gentle" forms of exercise can do for you.My lifestyle altered,and could no longer practice yoga anymore with the same amount of dedication but your body never "forgets" it,and even now & years along the line can still give the kids a run for their money with "touching toes" and so on.

I can relate to T'ai Chi as being very similar in a lot of ways.Perhaps this thread will inspire me to try it :)

@Sydslittlebiscuit & Inkanta, another one here with knee problems. Not same as you both, my kneecaps dislocate & sometimes lock.It's very painful and always need to be careful when walking,cycling,can empathise with you sue as if my weight goes up,not good & real trouble walking with more risk of the problem happening.Like you both,I refuse to let it beat me & just "get on with it all" :)

@Tracy,really enjoyed reading your post about your mum. Sounds like she's got great spirit! good on her at the age of 75 :D
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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 14:24

Quote (Sydslittlebiscuit @ April 09 2006, 02:11)
So I just started researching on the internet and came across pilates, which was perfect.  Although I find weight really hard to shift, I am eating properly, tend to have a lot of blended fresh fruit drinks, rather than sandwiches etc.  I love to walk, but if I do too much of that I get hot aches for hours to the point of tears!  I like going swimming but being on a low wage I can't always afford to go :-( Any suggestions he he!  I really want to do an exercise that basically can help shed the pounds but I can do it at home, I am totally lost really.  I used to love dancing, but thats a definate no no!  Really pilates is the only one I can think of at the moment  :O

You know, that's the darn of it all. It's a vicious circle--losing weight will definitely help, but to effectively lose weight and keep it off, we have to exercise--which is very challenging when we're in pain.

After my last child I gained an inordinate amount of weight, and lost it primarily through dancing to Mike's music, particularly through Inc. The knee OA hadn't set in but I had to be careful of everything else—the c-section, avoiding reinjury (left knee issues actually started in my early 20's through an injury inflicted on me and ankles and feet from ballet before even that--heh, two sprains and a left knee flare happened during Inc part IV). I also found myself gaining again after the ACL, and it took even longer to get back.  Now come to find out, even though I'm well within my weight range, I would still benefit from being at the lowest end of it Re: the knees. It's been much harder (and I'm not there yet) to lose weight I never even wanted to lose. But--come to find out (heh….not from my doc until I asked him), for every 10 pounds of weight one loses, 50 pounds are taken off of the knees, so that's my motivation. I'd like to take another 100 pounds off the knees. :)

Regarding the other health issues, with diabetes, I’m not sure about unsweetened cherry juice from the sugar standpoint. Re: exercise, there has been lots of research on positive effects of exercise on insulin levels, but there again, it sounds like you need a very specific exercise/nutrition prescription/program designed for you. You might want to look through some of the topics at http://www.medlineplus.gov including PCOS (think it’s under “O”). There are international links as well, here and there. Regarding dancing, don't give up on it forever if you loved to do it. I cannot do grandes jettes anymore, but I can move in a way that is graceful and lower impact. As you lose weight and work with the pilates, you may be surprised at what you can get back. I never thought I'd be able to run without my ACL brace, but even this morning, I only braced my right knee with the more flexible one—not the robo-looking one.

Indeed, I was in noticeable pain for the first mile today, but then things improved. The latest acute severe knee episode happened last fall and I didn't want another one. Then, I was dancing while stomping grapes—barefoot for 40-45 minutes. That was on a Sat., and by Tuesday I could walk again. I was in so much pain that I nearly threw up on the way home (and no…hadn’t been drinking—it was the pain). ;) Looking back, it seems like such a stupid thing to have done, but there was a band, drumming…it called.  BTW….there is a fairly new treatment for OA pain here (probably it’s been around longer in other countries). It’s made out of hydraluronan, which is a substance present in joint fluid. One has to go through a series of three injections--$1000 a pop here in the US—probably a fraction of that anywhere else. You might want to look into it. My last insurance would have paid for them, but I don’t know if the new company will. I’m not a shot person, so I’ve avoided. I told the doc that I’d work with the brace through spring and then make a decision. One thing that a doc recommended to me when I was 23 and having issues was heel cups-- http://www.orthomedicalsupplies.com/heel_cu....rts.htm  is an example of them. I found they really helped and even managed to use them in ballet and jazz shoes. In fact, in the fall of 1999 when my meniscus problem reared it’s ugly head, I had bought new running shoes and decided I didn’t need my heel inserts anymore. Ha! These days? I don’t workout without them. Hmm...just saw their gel ones--they look sort of good. Suppose I should be taking this off-forum about now, but there seem to be several here with similar issues. BTW....if anyone wants a scan of those knee exercises (they are the same that had been rec. in my 20's as now, so they're pretty standard), I'd be glad to scan and send. Of course, you'd want to review them with your doc.

BTW...brainstorm while running (BWR)--eventually (not sure the technology is here quite yet) through videocams maybe some of us will be able to share things like T'ai Chi "face to face." Right now, when I've talked to friends via webcam (theirs, I don't have one yet), they seem a bit in slow mo, which wouldn't work well for exercise. Hmm...maybe it would. :) But...web-based exercise instruction with two-way interaction (so the instructor can see where you need help) is probably not such a distant future possibility.


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maria Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 17:01

hi sue and all,
i think pilates will make u good, like yoga or tai chi are gentle, non-explosive exercises, which allow u to control (and that's actually the aim) your body at any moment. they are good to increase the strength in articulations, whenever u work slowly and always trying to avoid too much preasure on the knees. the secret is not to force, but listen and feel your body. it will mark the limits, which u can stretch little by little.

i'm not a doctor myself, so i won't dare to tell u completely sure that tai chi would heal u from your suffering, but i saw it helped to regain the health of people with some serious illnesses.
in one of they gyms i was working i had a group of women whose doctors had recommended them respectively tai chi as a complementary therapy. especially, i remember three of those women. the first was an old lady (70 something) who was recovering from a cancer. the second one had suffered from a serious depression and had big weight problems and the third was a young woman who suffered from a horrible degenerative process, forgive me that i can't remember the name right now... i'm not good for those long names, but it was related to a failure in her nervous system which affected negatively her moves and coordination. she had had some crises in which she had been half paralized. well.. in two years of practise, she had her medical tests to control it, and the illness didn't completely disappear in that time, but it slowed down. she gained strength and flexibility and could get to coordinate movements. and this all made her feel confident and in a better mood. i admired her deeply... she always worked hard (and hope she's still) practising every day in the morning.

i'm almost sure tai chi would do u good, sue, but anyway, first is the advise of your doctor.

earlier, thebell(end) was wondering about the music while doing tai chi, we used it with the main purpose of controlling the time.
the maximum benefits u can expect from doing tai chi will be whenever the form is done in the proper timing. the first style i practised had two forms within the first level: one short of 24 movements and a long one -78 movements. the 24 m.'s time was 5 minutes and the long one has to be made in around 15 minutes.
we used to practice with two chinese pieces of music the maestro had brought from shangai for that purpose. checking the timing was easy following the music.

mike oldfield's 'wild goose flaps its wings' has got the perfect length for the short form of chuan. however, i never practice listening to mike because mike's music makes me concentrate on the music and i can't do that while i do tai chi.. u have to be aware of your arms and legs, the position of hands, the breathing, the eyes. no way for me. i prefer a background music which doesn't *soaks* me up. some of terry oldfield's music was a good background though.. i used to hear a lot that album with the sound of whales and a beautiful flute... not sure if it was 'illumination'.

Quote (Inkanta @ April 09 2006, 14:24)
BTW...brainstorm while running (BWR)--eventually (not sure the technology is here quite yet) through videocams maybe some of us will be able to share things like T'ai Chi "face to face." Right now, when I've talked to friends via webcam (theirs, I don't have one yet), they seem a bit in slow mo, which wouldn't work well for exercise. Hmm...maybe it would. :) But...web-based exercise instruction with two-way interaction (so the instructor can see where you need help) is probably not such a distant future possibility.

inkanta, i agree a webcam adds interaction which is needed, so the results would be improved compared with what u get from a cold dvd, but even so it would lack of *something*, i'm afraid. learning tai chi is like learning to dance in a way, it's not enough to copy the movement, u have to feel it and for that, i think, it's necessary the real contact with people cause it's not only about correcting positions, it's also to learn and adapt the breathing and the position of hands and eyes. i've never used a webcam myself, sure it's a good experience, but regarding tai chi, i guess it must be hard to appreciate those details on someone in the other side of the screen. much as i find the internet completely helpful for almost everything, there are some things which still need the real contact with people..

hang on.. u've just given me an idea.. maybe a virtual environment to meet could work.. i can image how it would be in tr3s lunas... instead of flying, we could have a tai chi lesson in the desert, or better, on the beach by stonehenge.. please, anyone could suggest mike to consider it for his next virtual adventure? :D


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Sydslittlebiscuit Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 17:17

I think probably most of you nice peeps here are basically saying with a healthy mind comes a healthy body, and I think that is totally correct. And dancing, or tai chi can assist in the mind coming together with the body. Its funny as I have just bought a little blood pressure machine lately as I have that also LOL!  And i have been monitoring myself after cirtain situations.  I found some of them quite amusing

Just woke up - 104
Tidying up - 127
Cat stressing me out about her food - 137
After working out my accounts for year ending April - 145!!!!!
After having a good laugh at something funny - 110

from those results I think I am going to laugh more!!!  And have found out that my cat and accounts are likely to kill me in large quantities LOL!!!! LOL!!!!  All these results are with medication I think I was probably before medication around 149-160 incredibly worrying!


It just proves that a healthy mind, such as laughter - can really make a difference to your physical wellbeing, I found those results quite facinating!

Sue x


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Brizo Offline




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Posted: April 09 2006, 17:59

Best way to loose wieght do not eat after 6pm don`t follow mike`s life style you`ll look 10 years older.
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