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Timorage Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: Aug. 2001 Posted: Sep. 29 2001, 08:55 Hello everyone! Someone has told me a strange thing about the main theme of TB. He said that MO had 'copied' the theme of Magma's track "KonhTarKösz" when he was at the Manor. But Mike's album was released several weeks before Magma's. So C. Vander, disgusted, (Magma's guitarist) decided not to release their album to avoid the trial. Have you ever heard about something like this? Here is the strange text (in french): Quote M. Oldfield a pompé le thème principal de Tubullar Bells sur Magma quand ceux ci étaient en train d'enregistrer "KonhTarKösz" au Manoir à Paris. A l'époque ce p'tit gars de 17 ans ne s'est pas gêné pour repomper pratiquement à l'identique le thème principal de l'album (le morceau KohnTarKösz est composée de deux parties de 15-16 mn). Et comme par hasard, Tubullar Bells a été édité quelques semaines avant celui de Magma. Dégoûté, C. Vander (le batteur et fondateur de Magma) a décidé de ne pas sortir l'album car ils auraient été purement et simplement accusé de plagiat (cependant il ont gardé le titre)!! Back to top

GMOVJ Group: Members Posts: 273 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 02 2001, 03:48 We already have this topic debated on Tubular Mailing List (french speaking ML...) quite intersting topic anyway... But is this really true ? I can't say... When I was 1 year old, I recorded an album at the manor too. And you know what, Mike copied all my stuff ! So I never released my first album, wich was called "Aga aga, blllll areuh". Yeah, just joking... badly, but joking While we can't listen to "KonhTarKösz" Original Mix (huhuhu. bad humour, not in mood.), we CAN'T make our own opinion... Why all this mess ? What can it be ? Jalousy ? Because TB was a huge hits, commercially and artisticly ? Or reality ? All musician must take their inspiration from something... I don't remember where, but I read something of Mike somewhere : "When i listen a good piece of music from another musician, i often want to make an entire album of it" (It was translated in french, and this is not exactly the word, but this is the main idea). Maybe Mike only took a small part of Vander and make an entire album with it ? But there's so much thing in TB, that I can't understand this sentence : "A l'époque ce p'tit gars de 17 ans ne s'est pas gêné pour repomper pratiquement à l'identique le thème principal de l'album". Of wich main thema are we talking about ??? If Mike copied the main thema, he copied all the album : there's no main thema or tt must be talking about this piano riff or the bell theme... And if he copied this album, who did he steel with Hergest Ridge ? Who did he steel with Incantations ? et all... Of course, Mike may use some bits from Vander, maybe "unconsciently"... If it was clearly a copy, why Vander did not say anything at the time ? Maybe it's true. Mike is only a bad guy, who steel Vander. But would TB by Vander, with other orchestration, arrangements, would it be so beautiful ? Vander, who got his very very very very own philosophy, certainly not make a TB like Mike's one... You see, my idea is not very clear about all this mess... sorry for Magma lovers in this place... but with Vander idea of life and music (well, what I read about...), I'm pleased with my Mike's TB. I would be very very very interested in knowing Mike opinion. Cheers and tubular respect to all GMOVJ -------------- Cheers, GMOVJ [URL=http://tubular.fodplanet.com]http://tubular.fodplanet.com[/URL] - The french speaking mailing list Back to top

Timorage Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: Aug. 2001 Posted: Oct. 02 2001, 09:40 Thank you, very much for your interesting response, GMOVJ! I'll try to find the topic you're talking about! Back to top

GMOVJ Group: Members Posts: 273 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 02 2001, 11:26 To include our non-french speaking in this discussion, maybe i can propose this kind of "translation" of your quotings : M. Oldfield stealed the main musical phrase of TB from Magma when they were recording "KonhTarKösz" at the Manor in Paris. At this time, this small 17 year old guy wasn't ashamed to copy nearly exactly the same main phrase ("KonhTarKösz" is composed of two part of 15-16 min). And by chance, TB was released a few week before Magma's album. Disgusted, Christian Vander (Magma's drummer and founder) decide not to release his album because they may have been shown as plagiarist (however, they keep the title.) About the Manor in Paris, I think the original text must be "the Manor AND Paris." Cheers GMOVJ PS : I would appreciate to know if this text is about steeling the main them or the main concept (long instrumental)... On TML, we were inform that Mike was present as a session musician (cf. the making of TB in tubular.net articles) when Magma repeated their album. -------------- Cheers, GMOVJ [URL=http://tubular.fodplanet.com]http://tubular.fodplanet.com[/URL] - The french speaking mailing list Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 02 2001, 20:08 Well, a couple things... First off, if they'd really recorded their album before his, they must have had proof of that, so why did they not kick up a fuss about it? They could probably have made a fair amount of money out of it, had it been proved that Mike had indeed stolen the theme. I'm not sure their record company would have been too happy with them refusing to release the album (which they would have poured their money into, and therefore sat waiting for its release in order for them to gain that money back in record sales), for the reason that Mike Oldfield stole their tune... Secondly, it seems Mike may have recorded his original demo tape for Tubular Bells before arriving at The Manor with the Arthur Lewis Band (I say may have, because there seem to be conflicting reports on that). I believe this demo included most of the major themes used in Part 1 of the album. If that is so, and if he did indeed record it before arriving at The Manor, and therefore before coming into contact with Magma, then there is the proof that Mike did not steal the theme (though it seems he doesn't need the proof - few people accuse him of stealing it). Mike has been known to listen to Magma...How much attention he's paid to them over the years might be a different matter, but perhaps their sort of music appealed to him and the odd phrase of their music got stuck in his head (though with an unreleased album, I'd question how much of a chance he had of hearing it in order to get it stuck in his head). At the same time, coincidences happen in music. They do say there's nothing new under the sun, though I suspect theat may not be a rule that holds entirely true... Still, the Tubular Bells piano riff is based simply around notes from an A minor scale (with the piece itself being in A minor) - not exactly anything unusual which would be impossible for someone else to hit upon accidentally. I can think of quite a few positions on the guitar where, with a little bit of playing around (like a great majority of musicians do...) the first few notes of the TB riff could be arrived at. I'd say it's similar with the piano as well - the notes are mostly right next to each other. Not that, in saying this, I dismiss the talents of the writers of the riff (whoever they may really be...), just that I say it wouldn't be impossible for two similarly creative minds to fall upon it on their own (I say not impossible...perhaps the real question is how possible it might be, though that's one I think I'll leave). Of course, like GMOVJ says, without anyone being able to hear KonhTarKösz, we don't even know what it is Mike is accused of having stolen (I would suspect that Mike doesn't either), so how can anyone tell? If Tubular Bells is all we've heard, we assume that it is the original and anything sounding like it is a copy...whether things would have been the same had KonhTarKösz been released in 1973, we will never know. Back to top

GMOVJ Group: Members Posts: 273 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 03 2001, 04:03 KS : perfect post. As usual. I still wonder : - what would mike copy ? * the piano riff * the bell * Piltdown section (wich is closed to Vander'spirit) - Did Mike copy ? * music * concept About the reaction of Vander, I would quote KS post : "if they'd really recorded their album before his, they must have had proof of that, so why did they not kick up a fuss about it." Vander is a very special man. He invented a language, a philosophy and almost a whole world for his music. So I can imagine that he was so special, that he didn't do anything... "I'm not sure their record company would have been too happy with them refusing to release the album" This sentence are nowadays minded, I'm not sure it can be applied to the 70's... I don't know, but Mike was looking for a company for long time to release TB... Magma was founded in 1969, had already recorded 4-5 lp, so they may have enough money to "erase" a whole set of recording session. Or as progressive,avant-gardiste and """jazz""" artist, Magma may be ... more free (think we were in 1970's and in France, were a lot of jazzman immigrated)? In 1970' Magma signed on Philips and A&M, maybe they repsected Magma'swork more than RB respected Mike's work ? And more, Magma realesed : - KOBAIA (1970) - 1001 DEGRES CENTIGRADES (1971) - UNIVERIA ZEKT: THE UNNAMABLES (1971) - BRUXELLES 1971 - MEKANIK KOMMANDOH (session in 1971, recorded 01/73) - MEKANIK DESTRUKTIW KOMMANDOH(1973) - NEHEH (1973)* AKT II - KOHNTARKOSZ (1974-CD1988) *http://mageos.ifrance.com/zeuhl/ "Le 15 avril 1973, la nuit suivant l'enregistrement de MEKANIK, Jannick TOP jouait de l'orgue dans les studios du Manor dont la fenêtre donnait sur un cimetière. Ambiance spéciale pour une musique étrange qui servit de point de départ à cette longue improvisation où VANDER, TOP, BLASQUIZ et GARBER se retrouvent sur un terrain musical sans aucun rapport avec la musique écrite de MAGMA, mais où l'essentiel réside dans le fait de vivre un de ces moments forts où l'on sent quelque chose de vrai se passer entre les musiciens." => "15th Of April 1973, the following night of the recording of Mekanik, Jannick Top was playing organ in the Manor's studio, with a window open on a graveyard. A special ambient for a strange music, starting point for this long imrovisation where Vander, Top, Blasquiz and Garber meeting themselve on a musical field without any connection with Magma written music, but where the essential is in living a important and strong moment, when something really true happens between musicians" Wow, long post, I should stop now Cheers to all, GMOVJ Funny fact, Magma played in 73 in the Reading Festival. -------------- Cheers, GMOVJ [URL=http://tubular.fodplanet.com]http://tubular.fodplanet.com[/URL] - The french speaking mailing list Back to top

Timorage Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: Aug. 2001 Posted: Oct. 04 2001, 04:46 Here is an interview of Christian Vander, he's talking about Mike Oldfield... Take a look here: http://members.aol.com/sleeplessz/batmag.htm An extract: Quote It's a pretty sad story but things have to be said. A man called Mike Oldfield did steal my music - to be more precise, extracts from "Mekanik" and "La Dawotsin". When we recorded "Mekanik Kommandoh" in 1972, Oldfield was waiting for recording "Tubular bells", which is in fact an extract from my music. I played this music for him, without guessing that h would steal it for him. When I saw the film "The Exorcist", like a "good boy" I found its music fantastic. Of course it was : that was the music I used to play. I didn't make the relation between the two musics at once. But, one day one of the Magma's member told me "Mike oldfield, he's the guy who was there when we composed Mekanik Kommandoh". In fact, he hasn't composed something else in the same vein because he had not the end of the music. Since this film, many film scores were composed that way - which is typically magma's one - and I couldn't play my music because I could have been accused of copying the others. That really drove me crazy. At this time, I had composed the following music of "Mekanik kommandoh" but, as I couldn't play it, I had to explore new harmonic realms, which were a little bit too complicated for my capacities - unlike Mekanik - and that was "Kohntarkosz". Back to top

GMOVJ Group: Members Posts: 273 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 04 2001, 12:18 Wow ! Very intersting post Timorage ! Thanks, got to think about it... Cheers GMOVJ -------------- Cheers, GMOVJ [URL=http://tubular.fodplanet.com]http://tubular.fodplanet.com[/URL] - The french speaking mailing list Back to top

Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1868 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 05 2001, 22:13 Almost each track of The Millennium Bell is heavily influenced by another artist or famous style. Apparently, Mike has no problem using other artists's trademarks. I'm not sure he would have no problem of stealing a terrific melody, like the Magma person seems to accuse him. Was the Magma song played with the same keyboard sound as the Tubular Bells intro? I really can't tell if this story is true or not, when I listen to The Millennium Bell, I think it might be true. And these days, for some reasons, I am convincing that Mike is not as different as he might seem from the 70's. Steve Jobs, when people told him Apple took the Macintosh idea from Xerox, replied with this Picasso's quote: "Good artists borrow, great artists steal". Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: May 10 2002, 23:29 I read on the 25th aniversary booklet that the demo tape for Tubular Bells demo tape was recorded before he got to the manor. But, I don't know what was on that tape. It might be true, but without any proof I tend to doubt it -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: April 04 2003, 15:07 An interesting story but it is of course a lie of this Magma guy. I mean look, it's not as if that theme 'from The Exorcist' he refers to only appears once at the beginning of Tubular Bells. It reappears a number of times throughout the album and is sometimes intricately intertwined with other themes etc. To think that Mike could, and would have changed the whole concept of his already finished composition within a short period of time (as Vander states Mike was 'waiting to record TB' at the time) just because he heard another guy play a theme that he liked, which would have given him such an urgent desire to have it on his record that he would 'steal' it, simply seems ridiculous. But of course, Mike Oldfield can't come up with a good theme himself, he has to steal from others. lol. I'd been meaning to check out Magma sometime but now I sure as hell won't. Back to top

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