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Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 02 2004, 14:26 Yep, new song. This is an idea of mine finally put into practice: a Musical Palindrome. The basic idea is that, if you reverse the notes and play it, you'll hear exactly the same thing. There are more intricacies on that, however: in the bass track, every bar (alternating 9/8 and 13/8) is a palindrome (the same with the piano), and the percussion is an endless cycle of two palindromes. And such stuff. The percussion was created with real objects, too, and most instruments were recorded with Reason. Only the harp was recorded with General MIDI. Here are the credits for the song (for humourous purposes! ). http://ferniecanto.imdanet.com/bttb/tetralogy.ogg -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

BOOsTER Group: Musicians Posts: 1024 Joined: Jan. 2003 Posted: Oct. 02 2004, 14:39 it just sound weird...interresting, but pretty crazy stuff for my taste...sry -------------- http://www.djbooster.net Back to top

Satyagraha Group: Musicians Posts: 103 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Oct. 04 2004, 08:00 A very clever piece, impressive in its consequence. But, er... I'm afraid I find it more than a little lifeless and sterile. To me, beauty is the most important aspect of music. And yes, beauty is a function of among other things form, though form alone doesn't result in beauty. But, of course this is a matter of taste. I've never been fond of serialism or even the Schönberg-Webern-Berg school. I like the beginning, though. Yes, very good beginning. I if I were you, I'd throw in a contrasting, more lyrical middle part. While this piece, soundwise, is an improvement over your former works posted here, I still think it sounds far too machine-like. Those flute and bass samples doesn't sound  good, not to these ears at least. And programmed overdriven guitars always sound fake to us guitarists. You really should warm up the production with some ambience. Just a hint of reverb would make it sound much better, and the samples blend into a more convincing soundscape. -------------- Byrði betri berrat maðr brautu at en sé mannvit mikit Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 04 2004, 08:31 Thanks a lot for the comments! Perhaps I should give my side of the story here, but it's not out of arrogance at all. It was part of my intention to make it sound clockwork because it is more experimental than human-like, and it is the ugly (hideous?) duckling of the five tracks. I didn't credit cartoon characters as the performers for nothing, (though Ian shame on me! ). I was afraid that if the performances were less machine-like, the palindrome concept would go down the drain. That was the most important aspect of the composition, after all. But I'll definitely consider your suggetion for the next tracks when I start recording them! Certainly they will lack the clockwork sound of Tetralogy - one of them will be played entirely by hand on my keyboard, even. The thing is that I'm still wary of the idea of computers sounding like humans. I don't swallow that notion easily. But I will soften up the production on the next tracks. I am scared of reverb, because I always find it to sound gimmicky. But I guess a slight hint of it can't hurt. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ktran Unregistered Posted: Oct. 04 2004, 11:18 1. On Reverb: We always hear music being played in a room, or a concert hall, and reverb is a naturally occuring thing. To remove that would be to make it sound unnatural, as unnatural as using too much reverb and making it sound overprocessed. Used well, it adds richness and dimension to, frankly, an otherwise flat and unexciting sound. We never hear a singer when he or she is singing right into our ears, but rather, from a ways back, where natural room/hall reverb takes runs its course. You can use a lot more than a slight hint before it becomes too gimmicky. Sometimes effects can have a great influence on style. What if guitar players never realised that overdriving an amp could make such a musical sound? What if the Edge never bought his electro-harmonix memory man? 2. I would suggest that you try hand-playing most things, if not everything on your keyboard. And forget the overdriven guitar samples, a nice synth lead line would sound much better, given what you've got to work with. Your wish to make things sound machine-like is a noble excuse, but I think an excuse nonetheless, and one you've used before. Minute inconsistencies in timing and perhaps more importantly, dynamics make for much more interesting music. And it need not detract from your palindromic structure. It probably will make it more effective, as your listeners will be able to hold their interest better, and therefore be able to notice your compositional intent. As it is, it just becomes mind-numbing. 3. I agree with Satyagraha. I'm not much of a fan of serialism either. 4. To summarise: - get thee to http://www.personalcopy.com/sfarkfonts.htm, and check out the "big" soundfonts. I'd also have a look at sampletank.com, last I checked, they have a previous version of their software available for free. - PLAY your music ;-) Capture the essence of a live performance by, well, performing live. The rise and fall in volume and the sense of urgency in live playing can kick the crap out of most sequencing. Like I've said before, you've some wonderfully creative compositional ideas, and with a bit of help, you can take it so much farther. rgds, Khoa Tran HarmonicShift.net Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 04 2004, 11:44 I spoke to you about it online, but I'll just add a few comments: Satyagraha got it in one with the analogy of serialist music. The track is intelligent rather than palletable. That's not to say it isn't any good. I bet if I did an orchestral arrangement of it focusing on percussion and strings it would go down a treat with the type of concert going audience who pretend to like clever music like that. A lot of early electronic music from the 60s onwards was in this style. Recently it has been dubed IDM or 'Intelligent Dance Music' when used to describe the present music of Radiohead and Aphex Twin As for achieving a perfect symmetry in form, I think Webern experimented with this using the 'magic square' as his influence: S A T O R A R E P O T E N E T O P E R A R O T A S The words can be read in any direction. Neat huh? Anyway, it was argued that symmetry form wasn't natural in music and so Bartok experimented with the concept of the 'golden point'. In nature the important part comes about two-thirds through the piece. Check out the first movement of 'Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta' to hear this in action A few comments he says? More like a bloomin' lecture! Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 04 2004, 17:22 I am not a good player. A Casio keyboard is all I have, and I'm still learning how to play moderately intricate lines without getting my fingers tied into a knot, and putting a little bit of expression on it. I can never sound the way I want to sound. Playing might be better than sequencing, but I can not record the parts by hand. I can't. Period. I don't even have equipment for that. The track I will be playing relies almost solely on chord sequences, and it will be more of a Residents-ish experiment (leave all the mistakes on) than anything else. And me, playing the instruments of Tetralogy by hand? Not in a million years. You really can't turn donkeys into racehorses, in the end. I just don't have equipment for anything, and my computer isn't too good. I can't help it. What I can do is a palindromic song, and that's my humble achievement. I sound unnatural and sterile? Well, it's a shame I just can't be as natural-sounding as fantastic bands like Creed, Limp Bizkit, Evanescence, Good Charlotte and Blink 182. ... I'm sorry for sounding like a real arsehole here. I should shut up and work, I really should. I start talking and I can't help myself. But your comments are considered, and I'm not dissing them. Your concern is deeply appreciated. Thanks a lot! -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: Oct. 04 2004, 17:35 What you could do is recording the parts to a sequencer at a slower tempo (much slower if need be), then speed them up. That's cheating? Well, who cares. You can always re-record them once you have developed your playing skills. Don't have any idea what you're trying to get at by citing those bands. I don't think anyone here ever mentioned them. Back to top

ktran Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: May 2003 Posted: Oct. 05 2004, 00:46 The great thing about playing is that the more you do it, the better you become. And if you can't play everything, or even most things, than try some things. Holger's suggestion of doing it at a slower tempo is a good one. You get to record your own work, and you get some practise/playing experience. And it's not easy either, no doubt about that. I don't edit my guitar solos, but I do record them over and over again until I get them as good as I can (even then, you can hear mistakes). The next track I'll likely post has a guitar solo which is one of 27 takes recorded over a period of 2 hours... and it lasts only half a minute. It's hard work, but it's very satisfying when you get it sounding the way you want it to. I'm sorry you're taking it more personally than I intended. I've never taken away from your skill as a composer. Your structures are far more complex and involved than anything I've attempted, or will attempt for some time. You have my respect in that regard. However, I do hope that I come across as only trying to push you to do better. You have only a casio and a not-so-great computer? Fine! Work with it. You've done good stuff with it, and  can conceivably do better stuff with it too. We can all do better with what we've got. I can already hear progress in the sounds you're choosing (the harp isn't half bad, the way you use it), and the tools you're choosing to use (ie: Reason). I think my suggestions re: reverb and replacing the overdriven guitars with synth lead lines are valid, and you can easily experiment with those given what you've got. RealFont (a free soundfont) has a pretty good flute sample, if I recall correctly. Give that a shot to see if you like it. Little things help. Try not to be so negative about yourself and instrumental ability. We all have to start somewhere. If you say you will "never" be able to do something, then you've just made it all the more difficult for you to ever do it. I'm not half the guitar player some of the others on this board are, but it's something that I keep working at. I will choose to ignore your name-dropping those bands. I'm sorry I got you so worked up, and if you no longer want to read this, what I hope to be constructive, sort of comment, then PM me to that effect, and I will simply stop doing so. I do hope it doesn't come to that, though. As long as we refrain from personal attacks and petty bickering, I'd like to think that comments on and criticism of our work can only be a good thing. This has been a good community for that. rgds, -------------- Khoa Tran www.suspendedseconds.ca Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 05 2004, 07:06 Nah, I wasn't upset. You haven't seen a real upset word from me, so don't worry. I just had to say a few things about the way I work to make it clear that I don't use the MIDI samples and the guitar samples because I love them. I just invest way too much on musical ideas and compositions that I rush to get them done, and treat the sounds and production as secondary, tertiary, or even neglect them completely! It would be horrible to try to extract wonderful sounds from my equipment (if I can call it that), and I would never get the songs done. I never misunderstood your intentions. It's a good feeling to see there are people who want to see me improve. So don't feel like I'm dissing you. I'll try to download those soundfonts you showed me (thanks a lot for them) and work things out. I often feel like saying something, and end up sounding like a jerk. And the next time around, I always sound defensive and apologetic. Thankfully I haven't done that yet... d'oh. Well, see you in the next composition, then. I'll work a little harder now! -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

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