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Topic: The First Silly Question of 2006, Music on Earphones/headphones< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
bee Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 05:55

Listening to music is something most of us probably take for granted but the understanding of it has to be a very complex process.

I have been wondering lately how is it that you can hear sounds coming from above your head when listening through headphones? This may be a little elementary for some, but for me & perhaps others, it is interesting. Any answers in laymans terms would be appreciated  :D

I can understand that you have two ears ( :) )through which the sounds are introduced directly into your brain. The sounds appear to move around. How is it that you can still hear other things in the music  happening seemingly above you. I love this. A perfect and simple example would be the beginning of Orabidoo, the beautiful acoustic guitar above you & the glockenspiel bit moving from one ear to the other.

And who is it that decides how the music moves around? Is it purely the artist?

I love the magic and mystery in music and listen for this always, but occasionally logical things occur to me ( not very often I have to say ) . To experience musical sound at it's best,in my opinion, is when you can forget all means of it's origin ( ie how it is delivered to you) & the music becomes a part of you for the time it is playing - in turn you forget all intentional thought but for the music itself. It becomes a means of transporting your consciousness to different levels and Mike's music has always been totally absorbing in this way for me. Utter escapism. In his music there are so many layers and I think that because so much is going on that is why it can ( & indeed has to ) command your full attention.


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Deadcalm Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 06:54

Listening on Headphones always adds that extra Dimension
Ive found as Well... Specially on instrumentals.. I guess with
the  i pod mp3 player generation nearly everyone is listening
more this way.. If i want to really Listen hard to a Album its
Par for the Course .. but if im Surfing on the Net etc I prefer it on Speakers as a Background thing.. i like that walking through your head Effect you get on Certain sections of Keyboards And Strings as well.. Amarok is certainly a Case
in Question where Headphones are a Must !! ... Not sure if
its coming at me from Above .. But it sounds Good anyway. :cool:
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 08:42

Quote (bee @ Jan. 04 2006, 10:55)
I have been wondering lately how is it that you can hear sounds coming from above your head when listening through headphones? This may be a little elementary for some...

I have to try to remember back quite a long way to dredge up any information about the directionality of hearing, but my memory tells me that it's far from simple, and not properly understood. I offer this with considerable reservations; if anyone can correct any errors in it, please do!

I think there are two main ways in which the brain determines the direction of a sound (there may be more), but both depend on the differences detected by the two ears. If you're facing a source of sound straight ahead, then the sound received by both ears is identical. The brain detects that there's no difference, and interprets that as 'straight ahead'. If the sound is off to one side (say the left), then the sound heard by the ear that's furthest away is delayed a little (it has further to travel) and is fainter (it's in the 'audio shadow' of the head). The brain uses one or the other or both of these differences to decide that the sound is over towards the left.

However, complications arise when the sounds are reflected (as by the walls, ceilings, and floors of a room), and the brain has to sift through all the complex differences between the signals it receives from the two ears to try to reach a decision about where the source is - but still, all it has to go on is the difference between those two sounds, however complex that difference may be.

But the brain wasn't designed for headphone listening. So when you play music through headphones, all it can do is try to interpret the messages it gets from the two ears - and so it will create the impression of a 'space' around and inside your head. It's an illusion created by the brain's attempt to understand the differences between the signals it gets from the two ears.

I presume that when you get the feeling that the sound is 'above' you, that's because your brain can't figure out any other way of interpreting the signals that it's receiving. But because this is a false audio image, I suspect this will vary quite a lot from one individual to another. So although the recording engineer can probably predict pretty well what you're likely to hear from a pair of good stereo speakers (though the stereo image is itself an illusion of course), the sound space created by any particular individual using headphones may be much more unpredictable. The headphones themselves will colour the sound, which in turn may affect how the brain interprets directions (some headphones are much more effective than others at creating 'out of the head' sound locations).

There. The candidate has poured out all he knows in the examination, and awaits the criticism of the examiners!
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stevenmd779 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 09:20

And now for the common people's anser: I think it's cuz the sound is comming from both channels equally.

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olracUK Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 11:17

Another strange effect I've had on headphones - the effect of sound inside my head. Explain that one.

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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 12:21

Ever noticed how when you are sitting in front of a pair of speakers, some sounds appear from in the middle of them? This is because that sound comes from both channels at exactly the same time. It's the same thing with the headphones.

I'd just like to add one thing to the pot...

Try describing phasing to the average bystander. :)


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Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

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bee Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 12:52

Quote (arron11196 @ Jan. 04 2006, 17:21)
Ever noticed how when you are sitting in front of a pair of speakers, some sounds appear from in the middle of them? This is because that sound comes from both channels at exactly the same time. It's the same thing with the headphones.

I'd just like to add one thing to the pot...

Try describing phasing to the average bystander. :)

Yes, I have noticed this and this is what I like. I think it's clever. Two sounds becoming one? Is that right? From what you said it has to do with timing.. I had no idea. But what is a channel? Is that a speaker in it's entirity or part of one? ( sorry to be so dense, but I am curious now.)

Now phasing..that does interesting...


@ Alan, thanks for such a patient and detailed description, a joy to read. I particularly liked the bit about my brain not being able to figure out how to intrepret the signals it receives!! This is so true of many things, not just the headphones!! What was also interesting too was that the sounds we hear as individuals may not be exactly the same for everyone. This is also true of colour. People see colour differently and disagree whether something is blue or purple for instance.

Also forgot to say ( Alan)  in another thread, I know not where now, that I thought that the image of the pebble painted with the celtic design, was a wonderful object to look at. And from such a special place. Did you paint it?

@ Olrac,I definitely get the sound above my head in a surrounding kind of way. But it is also inside as well. Now I'm definitely confused!! :O


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 12:56

Quote (stevenmd779 @ Jan. 04 2006, 14:20)
And now for the common people's anser: I think it's cuz the sound is comming from both channels equally.

Well that would produce a centralised sound, sure enough, but bee's question is, why does it appear above the head. I feel sure that the answer lies in the illusions that the brain creates when it's presented with signals that aren't what it thinks they are.

I think that's where the answer to Andy's question is, too.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 13:08

Quote (arron11196 @ Jan. 04 2006, 17:21)
Ever noticed how when you are sitting in front of a pair of speakers, some sounds appear from in the middle of them? This is because that sound comes from both channels at exactly the same time. It's the same thing with the headphones.

Actually I don't believe it is the same. When you listen to headphones, each ear is hearing only one channel - left channel in left ear, right channel in right ear.

But when you listen to stereo speakers, each ear is hearing both channels, separated in space. That creates a very different kind of illusion - but because the sources of sound are out there in front (not stuck against each ear), I presume the brain finds it 'easier' to generate a reasonably 'natural' sound space.

@bee: yes, I painted the pebble - several in fact. I was rather haunted by the place that the pebbles had come from and wanted some way of expressing that - so I painted celtic designs on them.
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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 18:59

If we are talking about listening to music through headphones specifically, I always thought it was simply how the album was put together, you know, like surround sound, it is much more diverse with newer music is it not? The artist or sound engineer decides whether he wants something to sound like it is further away, or above you, or louder or softer, or more bass or less bass than other sections etc. I just assumed that those 'interpretations' we get when listening through headphones are simply the work of the sound engineer, which is somewhat lost through normal speakers, because you may be standing to one side of them etc, or have it too loud even, we are much more selective about the volume when wearing phones so as not to damage our ears, I hope!  But with headphones you are getting it exactly as the creator intended it, through both ears at the same volume and density, surely it's that simple is it not?

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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 19:49

And I've a feeling it won't be the last silly question of this year  ;)  :D

Music on headphones is very nice, when you are in the train, and for example listening to L+S, just like I was today...
Then sometimes the music just suits the view very much, and it's a great feeling...
Also, you don't have to hear these senseless conversations of all these people with their mobile phones...   :O   :)

But at home, I like the music coming from the speakers, as loud as possible, if the neighbours are in a good mood  :cool:


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stevenmd779 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 04 2006, 21:49

One effect I like to use with my music is to paste one channel of certain tracks slightly after the other channel. This gives a more full sound. Maby this could be when the music is above. At some points in Tubular Bells, I've noticed this, espically in the finale section it sounds like the piano is passing above me through space, and the bass is underneath.

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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 04:26

Quote (TubularBelle @ Jan. 04 2006, 23:59)
But with headphones you are getting it exactly as the creator intended it, through both ears at the same volume and density, surely it's that simple is it not?

No, truly, the whole issue of how the brain decides on the apparent location of a sound is very complex. In the case of headphones, we're presenting the brain with a task that it wasn't designed to deal with - hence the strange (and far from simple) results that are often produced.

I'm not a recording engineer, so I don't know what criteria they use to get the final balance between channels; but I would have thought that an engineer's intention in stereo recording would be to produce an effective sound stage - stereo image - when the recording is played through a pair of stereo speakers, rather than headphones? Maybe Korgscrew or somebody can tell us?
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 09:30

Here is a link to an interesting recent article where Pete Townshend laments the use of headphones:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28734


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bee Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 11:36

Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 04 2006, 18:08)
@bee: yes, I painted the pebble - several in fact. I was rather haunted by the place that the pebbles had come from and wanted some way of expressing that - so I painted celtic designs on them.

Well, Alan you are very talented, the pebble is beautiful and what a lovely, respectful thing to do.

@ Hiawatha, thankyou, that was an interesting article regarding ipods and hearing damage etc.( I love my ipod!;)  I must admit as much as I love listening to all the detail you get when using  headphones, it does feel kind of intrusive and unnatural. And I cannot listen for ages and ages. I need a break. It's not how we were meant to hear afterall. A kind of guilty pleasure in modern life, I suppose. But, I shall continue listening and noticing the best bits you might otherwise miss!!


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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 11:42

After I read the article, I can't get the song out of my head:

"Tommy can you hear me? Ooo-oh, Tommy? Tommy???"


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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 11:49

Did someone call? :D

Let me first put this whole thing my own words. I think you've already covered a few bits of it, but perhaps I can fill in a few gaps.

We get directional information from four basic things: difference in volume, time delay, phase difference and frequency difference.

If a person stands next to your right ear and shouts, it's obviously going to be far louder in your right ear than your left. We can simulate that electronically using the panpot on a stereo mixing desk - pan a sound completely to the right, and it becomes increasingly louder in the right channel, until it's completely in the right channel and there's none of it at all in the left.
If you now consider that being listened to on a pair of headphones, you'll probably notice what's wrong with just doing that. Get someone to stand next to your right ear and shout, and plug your right ear. You'll still be able to hear them quite well. That could partly be because you've not plugged your right ear properly, but even if you did, you'd still be hearing that person shouting. You'll note that some of the sound is reaching the left ear too. In fact, with someone shouting, this really isn't a surprise, and it brings us neatly to the second thing...
When we listen on headphones to our recording with the shouting person panned right, the left ear is getting none of it. This clearly isn't what's happening in the real world, and it's one of the reasons why the recording won't sound at all like the person is really there shouting. We can of course pan our person further towards the centre, and so mix some of the shouting into the left channel, but that'll actually just seem to move it into the centre of your head, rather than bringing the sound outside.
So, the second consideration is time delay. Actually, the sound of our shouting person could arrive at the same level at both ears. You might think that would automatically make it seem like the person is in front, but it won't necessarily. If the sound arrives at both ears at the same level and at the same time, then the sound will seem central (but still not necessarily in front), but if it arrives at one ear earlier than the other, we will assume it has come from that direction. The kind of delay necessary is far smaller than is noticeable as an echo (as short as 0.6 miliseconds, which is the time it takes sound arriving on one side of the head to reach the other. It can be as long as 35 miliseconds, at which point, we start to be able to detect it as an echo).

Now, phase...that's actually a variation on time difference. If an identical sound is arriving at both the right and left ears, the brain can compare the two and decide how far through the cycle each sound wave is. That is, if you imagine the sound waves wiggling up and down (which isn't really how they're arriving at the ears at all - they're differences in air pressure), the brain analyses what's arriving at each ear and decides whether they're both up and both down at the same time, or whether one is up while the other is down. From the frequency of the sound (from which we can find the wavelength - all sound waves travel at the same speed, so the higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength) it's then possible to use this information from comparing the waves to again help in knowing where the sound is coming from (it's mostly of use with continuous sounds).

You'll note that so far all of the kinds of information have been relying on this two point system which, by all rights, should only be able to tell whether something is to the right or to the left. After all, a sound coming from above is going to arrive at both ears at the same volume at exactly the same time, just the same as it will if it's coming from directly in front or behind. A whole lot of extra clues come from changes in frequency. As things move around our heads, the outer ears and the head itself alter the frequency content of the sounds which they make. For example, as something moves from in front to above you, its sound will get stronger at around 8kHz. If you happen to have a pair of headphones which have a peak at 8kHz, then you might just think that a lot of the sounds played through them are coming from above...

Some things are based on previous knowledge - planes, for example, tend not to fly underneath us when we're stood on the ground, so we'll usually interpret their sound as coming from above us.

I think I'll leave that there, so this doesn't get too long.

It would be true to say that most music is mixed predominantly with speakers in mind. Headphones fulfil a very useful role, and a lot of engineers use them while mixing, but there are very few who mix exclusively with headphones. They're generally not regarded as being a terribly accurate indicator of the final balance - even the very best headphones give a different picture to what speakers give. It's not necessarily that one is better than the other, but I would say that music almost always has to sound good on speakers (there might be a few instances where mixes are being done that will be heard on headphones only, but I really can't think of what those would be right now). A good mix should work on both headphones and speakers, really.
So, most engineers will be aware of how their mixes sound on headphones, but they will have been focused on getting something which works on your home stereo speakers. They'll certainly have paid attention to perspective, but placing things above, or behind, or anywhere else other than somewhere between left and right when you listen on headphones, is something that's not on the minds of most engineers. It's not even close to being an exact science yet. There are processes like binaural recording (putting two microphones in a dummy head, or even in someone's ears) which can give the impression of sounds coming from outside the headphones, but they don't work for everyone (some people hear everything as coming from behind when they hear a binaural recording), and binaural isn't really compatible with speakers (it not only loses the enveloping effect, but also gives a rather weak stereo image). There are some electronic processes, but so far none have been very successful, and again the mixes can run into problems when played on speakers. Some more adventurous engineers may experiment with techniques to aid localisation of sounds in their mixes, but I don't think there are any experienced engineers out there who think that all listeners are listening equally. They'll just be aiming to create something that works for everybody, no matter what they listen on and how their brains are wired.
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stevenmd779 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 13:49

So, was that method that I described called phasing?

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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 14:57

I love headphones the bigger the better, those big ol one's that make you look like that zany princess in star wars, the phones that come with ipod's are the shit's I have to wedge them into me ear's  very uncomfortable indeed.

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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Jan. 05 2006, 15:18

Quote (Korgscrew @ Jan. 05 2006, 16:49)
For example, as something moves from in front to above you, its sound will get stronger at around 8kHz. If you happen to have a pair of headphones which have a peak at 8kHz, then you might just think that a lot of the sounds played through them are coming from above...

This cuts straight to the heart of bee's question. I didn't know this. Thanks Korgscrew.

@bee. It's not so much a matter of talent but of patience, and the rather weird desire to spend quality time with a handful of pebbles. Here are two more. If you tap them gently, they vibrate at precisely 8kHz and therefore appear to be floating just above your head. Merlin, it seems, was an audio engineer ahead of his time.

second pebble
third pebble
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