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Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 13:28 @ Ugo.  As you noted, ABBA's box set was a sonic disaster.  It almost defies belief that a group so into the quality of their sound could be such a bad example of this whole messy issue.  More's the pity because the box set is so excellent in every other way.  I don't think for a second that this could have happened to them if Michael B. Tetrow were in charge.  I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading that he passed away not too long ago.  Very sad.  The man had wonderful ears.  As far as I know the last ABBA project he did was the "Thank You For The Music" box. @ Holger.  Good on you for signing.  I hope more people here do.  This is the text of my comments on the "Vapor Trails" petition: "#755. The writing and performing on this album more than merit the effort to repair the damage-even if it means going back to the unprocessed multitracks. To Rush: please don't allow trendy record company tactics to erode your integrity. The audience your record company has targeted with this foolishness are NOT the people buying your music! I'm not a young man but I'm not above begging!" (That last sentence is a phrase I'm particularly fond of.  Use it all the time.)   Anyone care to contribute their own examples of guilty albums?  I'd like to read more. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 13:53 Besides Vapor Trails and Death Magnetic, The Red Hot Chili Peppers' "Californication" is another much-cited example. The Wikipedia article also lists Muse's "Black Holes And Revelations"; I have that album, and while I can confirm that it is loud, I think it's still reasonable-ish; not like Death Magnetic, in any case. Oasis albums are also said to be impossibly loud, I couldn't say because I've never really heard them except on TV and such. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 16:50 This is a subject I`ve stumbled upon more and more recently on different forums and such.So I think the good thing is that people are becoming more and more aware of it.Many of which are cleary voicing their disaproval over it as well which is even more good news I think... I mentioned McCartney`s Memory Almost Full album in the Metallica thread which was for me the album where I started to think to myself well enough is enough here this is really going too far.It`s very similar to what bassman mentions there about that Rush album in a way.Because of course the whole thing with the last McCartney album was that it was going to be played in all these Starbucks coffee emporiums spread out accross the known universe.It was just a way of getting people to sit up and take notice of it and I would`nt be surprised if Macca was more than aware of it.I mean the first time I listened to it I thought "oh yeah nice crisp clean production I can hear everything going on here".But that`s kind of like the whole paradoxical thing about it because it creates this weird "flatlined" kind of sound.I mean to me it has a completely reverse effect after a while because it`s so compressed and lacking in dynamics that you eventualy switch off to it.You know you think you`re listening to it but your not.And the problem with Memory Almost Full is that on some of the really louder tracks the whole thing begins to distort and fall apart.And then when you rip that thing onto your computer it just get`s even worse,practicaly unlistenable as far as I`m concerned.It even makes Venus & Mars sound half decent and that was a real dog`s breakfast of a production job. Another worrying thing is that over the last three years Apple/Emi have been painstakingly slaving away remastering the entire Beatles back catalogue.Although reports for the most part have been generaly positive with "subtlety" kind of being the key word to a certain extent.I have to say under this current climate of "hot" mastering etc I`m a little bit suspicious every time I read something about the project now.So yeah things like "It sounds like Lennon is in the chair sitting next to you" etc.I don`t know it just makes me more than dubious that "warmth" and "clarity" isn`t all they are striving for here.It makes me wonder how much more people are going to have to give up just so they can hear George Harrison open a packet of crisps half way through the solo of The Fool On The Hill ???...And then it`ll only be a matter of time before people are crying out for more remasters..And then kerching kerching the whole thing is never bloody ending on it goes for an eternity.Anyway imo just to make doubly sure they should maybe draft in this guy.   Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 17:26 @ Dirk Star: regardless of whatever level of technical accuracy the upcoming Beatles remasters will get to, you'll never be able to hear George Harrison doing anything on "The Fool on the Hill" because he just wasn't there while the song was being recorded - the only one who was there was Paul McCartney, alone, and someone overdubbed the recorder later. Joking aside, yes, I do agree with you that the remastering thing somehow tends to get a bit exaggerated. I've got two Beach Boys compilation CDs - 1999's Greatest Hits and 2001's The Very Best of the Beach Boys. Of course, the remasters on the latter are claimed to be more recent than the ones on the former, but, what the heck, to me they sound very exactly the same. I don't think you can extract any new 'soul' out of old 1960s masters which were, for the most part, originally recorded (or mixed, I'm not sure) in mono. It's true that Capitol/EMI own all of the original masters and they could easily get all of those songs remixed into real stereo, but I guess it's not profitable for them - they apparently think it's much more profitable to release them "with a dropper", as we say in Italy, i.e. two or three with each new BB compilation they release [just take a look at this, the latest one - only two tracks are labelled as "Exclusive new stereo remix" !!] so BB 'fans' buy them just to get those two or three songs in stereo. Bah. Sorry for the rant and back on topic. @ Holger: I have Muse's album, I like it a lot and I can't find anything exceedingly loud on it - in fact I find it rather enjoyable. [Muse do play loud, sometimes, but that's the way they sound. ] As for Californication I can't comment - I've got it, but the last time I listened to that album was ages ago. I don't really like it. @ Bassman: as far as I know, Tretow isn't the one who was in charge of the remastering of ABBA's box set - he just did some new mixes for some tracks on the "Rarities" CD included in the box. The mastering was done by one Henrik Jonsson, a guy I've never heard of; at least that's what the booklet says: "CDs mastered by Henrik Jonsson at Masters of Audio, Stockholm". I guess that if Tretow had been in charge of the mastering (as well as doing the mixes I mentioned), the final result would have been much better. Yes, I agree that he does have a golden ear - I'm using the present tense because, as far as I know, he's still with us. The Wikipedia article about him, which is very badly written (IMHO), doesn't say anything regarding him being dead, and I was unable to find any more relevant information on him on the Net. I know for sure that he was alive in 2004, because he worked on Agnetha Fältskog's album My Colouring Book. However, yes, the Very Best of the Beach Boys CD sounds to me quite louder than the previous one. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

warlock Group: Members Posts: 41 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 19:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I -> I don't know if you've seen this, but it turned out that GUITAR HERO version of Death Magnetic is WAY better than "normal' release... + here's the screen i made, no need to comment on that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ -> great example of how loudness war affects the sound. -------------- cheers from Poland. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 19:56 Quote (Holger @ Sep. 21 2008, 13:53) Besides Vapor Trails and Death Magnetic, The Red Hot Chili Peppers' "Californication" is another much-cited example. The Wikipedia article also lists Muse's "Black Holes And Revelations"; I have that album, and while I can confirm that it is loud, I think it's still reasonable-ish; not like Death Magnetic, in any case. Oasis albums are also said to be impossibly loud, I couldn't say because I've never really heard them except on TV and such. Oasis at least can use the argument that they're MEANT to be loud, and most of the time, you shouldn't hear anything other than distorted guitars and Liam's voice cutting right through. Their second LP at least has a little sonic diversity and nuances at time, but Be Here Now is as flat and dull and impenetrable as a 90's rock album can possibly be. It's like they searched every track thoroughly, looking for any traces of open spaces, and promptly stuffed them with guitars. And it's LONG. And it's REPETITIVE AS HELL. Yes, it's a sonic nightmare. I haven't heard their other albums, so I can't talk about them. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 19:56 @ Ugo.  You just reminded me that I constantly mis-type his name as TETRow, rather than TRETow, as it should be.  Occasionally I look around the net to confirm what I thought was news of his passing.  Buggered if I can find anything now.  If I'm wrong, and he IS still around, then I'm delighted to be wrong.  I believe the mixes that were included in the "Complete" box's rarities were the same ones he did for the "Thank You For The Music" box.  But as you can see, his name appears nowhere in the "Complete" box mastering credits.  If it's true that his talented paws never went near the "Complete" box, then it's completely baffling to me as to why Universal Music didn't draft his services.  Of course we can only speculate, but it smells like a front-office-suit decision to me. As for The Fabs... looks like I'm not ever going to be getting rid of my 1987-era CD's if EMI doesn't get their remasters right the second time.  And I'll be treasuring my Dr. Ebbetts MFSL dubs all the more (flawed though they may be).  A long time ago the word "remaster" used to make my eyes light up.  Not any more.  Now I just groan with doubt. Cranberry sauce. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 20:07 P.S. Does anyone else remember the old "dbx Dynamic Range Expanders"? -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 20:33 Sorry Ugo but I looked it up on wikipedia and George is definetly on there... John Lennon – harmonica, maracas Paul McCartney – lead vocal, piano, recorder, bass guitar George Harrison – acoustic guitar, harmonica,crisps (Most likely cheese and onion.Although both beef and smokey bacon flavour have been speculated in the past) Ringo Starr – drums, finger cymbals Richard Taylor – flute Jack Ellory – flute OK I added the "crisps" bit in I just did`nt have the balls to change the page myself heh heh..Anyway the real version is here if you want to check it out.To a certain extent it is pretty much all Paul McCartney though so I`m not gonna` quibble too much.. Looking back again at that wikipedia page that relates to the loudness wars I noticed that The Queens Of The Stone Age album Songs For The Deaf was also listed as an example in there.Now I have to say that this is one of my favourite albums by a rock band ever, I absolutely love it.And purely out of co-incidence I`ve actualy been listening to it quite a lot over the last week or so.Anyway I don`t know if it`s just that I`m becoming more aware of these mastering deficiencies if you like since reading up on it a bit.But I was really quite taken aback by how "muddied" some of that album sounds to me now.I mean it was like I must`ve completely ignored it originaly because I loved the songs so much.And another thing with that album is that Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters drums on every single track who I just love listening to.But now I`m kind of picking up on the whole "sound seperation" aspect of it all if you like.You know I`m thinking to myself "well am I only listening to all this great drumming in it`s own context because they`ve wiped all trace of band inter-action"??..I mean I hav`nt got the best "ears" in the world when it comes to picking up on stuff like this sometimes.But the fact that I`m sat here pondering over it is enough to tell me something has got to be awry here..Where`s The Frequencies Kenneth? @bassman.. As I mentioned earlier most of the stuff I`ve read on these Beatle remasters has been very positive.About ten or so critics were invited into Abbey Road a couple of weeks back to listen to ten tracks remastered from The White Album and many a jaw was dropped apparently.I mean they`re staying faithfull to the whole weird stereo thing and everything plus I think they`re even re-mastering the mono versions as well alongside them.A lot of the technological stuff I`ve read on it is way over my head.But it does for me for the most part sound like they`re trying to re-capture the warmth and dynamics of the original vinyl versions.Rather than trying to dazzle or re-define them I guess.I have to admit though I`m kind of similar to yourself as far as "remasters" go now and I just get naturaly suspicious as soon as the word`s even mentioned. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 20:40 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 22 2008, 00:56) Quote (Holger @ Sep. 21 2008, 13:53) Besides Vapor Trails and Death Magnetic, The Red Hot Chili Peppers' "Californication" is another much-cited example. The Wikipedia article also lists Muse's "Black Holes And Revelations"; I have that album, and while I can confirm that it is loud, I think it's still reasonable-ish; not like Death Magnetic, in any case. Oasis albums are also said to be impossibly loud, I couldn't say because I've never really heard them except on TV and such. Oasis at least can use the argument that they're MEANT to be loud, and most of the time, you shouldn't hear anything other than distorted guitars and Liam's voice cutting right through. Their second LP at least has a little sonic diversity and nuances at time, but Be Here Now is as flat and dull and impenetrable as a 90's rock album can possibly be. It's like they searched every track thoroughly, looking for any traces of open spaces, and promptly stuffed them with guitars. And it's LONG. And it's REPETITIVE AS HELL. Yes, it's a sonic nightmare. I haven't heard their other albums, so I can't talk about them. Absolutely spot on with Oasis Sir M and could`nt agree with you more about Be Here Now.Their albums after that have improved imo although they still do fall foul to that OTT "wall of sound" syndrome from time to time I have to admit. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 21 2008, 20:59 Bring me the head of Phil Spector!     -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 22 2008, 15:23 @ Warlock: thanks for the YouTube clips, very non-technical - thus very likely to be understood by someone like me - and very clear. They're great. Heck, even I who can't distinguish a Fender Stratocaster from a PRS can hear, in the Metallica song, how dinamically better, 'punchier', is the snare drum in the Guitar Hero version. However, I've got an EQ processor unit connected to the CD player on my stereo (and to my amp), so I don't really care. @ Dirk Star, about the musician credits on the Beatles' song: the quote on Wikipedia (the real one) is taken from Ian MacDonald's book Revolution in the Head, not from Mark Lewisohn's later The Complete Beatles Chronicle. I've got both books, and IMHO the latter is much more reliable than the former. MacCormick a.k.a. MacDonald often appears to me to be prejudiced and misinformed. @ Bassman: as far as I remember, Phil Spector's productions were surely loud - he was the initiator of the "Wall of Sound" technique - but he didn't use any volume-enhancing devices; indeed, the musicians he used just played loud. So he is not to blame, I think. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1981 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: Sep. 23 2008, 00:20 I remember using DBX expanders and companders in the early 80's. Wish I had one now...... -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 23 2008, 00:34 Earlier this evening I was having a jolly good time with ELO's "Time" and "Secret Messages".  Danged if I didn't start picking up on some compression on "Time".  And, like an idiot, I got rid of my original editions ages ago when the ELO remasters came out, so I couldn't do a side-by-side on the PC.  I felt that "Secret Messages" sounded okay, but I'm less intimately familiar with that one than with "Time".  Or maybe my ears just need a rest. "Four Little Diamonds" still cooks after all these years. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Sep. 23 2008, 03:27 Quote (Bassman @ Sep. 23 2008, 05:34) Earlier this evening I was having a jolly good time with ELO's "Time" and "Secret Messages".  Danged if I didn't start picking up on some compression on "Time".  And, like an idiot, I got rid of my original editions ages ago when the ELO remasters came out, so I couldn't do a side-by-side on the PC.  I felt that "Secret Messages" sounded okay, but I'm less intimately familiar with that one than with "Time".  Or maybe my ears just need a rest. "Four Little Diamonds" still cooks after all these years. I had Secret Messages on in the car coming home from work this morning and I was thinking the exact same thing about Four Little Diamonds.I have to admit I`m not entirely sure which version it was(re-master or not) as for all I own them all on vinyl.Well err yeah I could`nt resist downloading them all illegaly(Sorry Jeff I can`t afford to buy em twice mate).There`s quite a number of extra tracks on it though so maybe it`s a more recent version I don`t know?.I remember reading that Jeff Lynne always intended Secret Messages to be a double album and then it got trimmed down by the record company.So I dare say there`s still a fair amount of tracks lieing around from those sessions.Kinda` strange that after Time we now get Time After Time   One of my favourite ELO albums though maybe 2nd after Out Of The Blue.Along with Four Little Diamonds I think my other favourite track from that album is probably Stranger. Bassman I know you own some of these so I`m curious what your take is on the XTC remasters "compression wise".They`re certainly a good deal louder than the first generation of cd`s that came out.And whilst the sound quality may appear crisper and more defined to an extent.In most cases I actualy still prefer the originals.Well I actualy prefer the vinyl if I`m being totally honest I just hate having to clean those things up every time I want to listen to them.I don`t know if you own Oranges & Lemons for instance, but they really went to town on that one cranking up all the stuff that had been mixed down etc.I mean that album was a fairly "busy" production anyway without them making it more so.And now in it`s current state it`s like Billy Smart`s bloody circus on there for me.A lot of it was just completely unnesscery imo.And then even the albums that sound ok to me now.Well obviously the more you read about this stuff the more kind of suspicous you become that you`re being duped somewhat. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 23 2008, 09:47 I love the coincidence about "Four Little Diamonds". So again, like an idiot, I had also gotten rid of my original XTC CD's back when the remasters came out.  I figured I might as well because I didn't have all of them anyway.  The only one I kept was the "Compact XTC" compilation, for the single mixes.  I still have all the vinyls up to "Mummer", but they would be of no help to me here. So this time I was sneaky.  I DL-ed an UNremastered track to do the comparison on the oscilloscope.  I used "Respectable Street"- lot of nice dynamics in that one.  Wouldn't you know it?  The remastered levels were almost completely saturated.  The spikes were, of course, all scaled down so as not to cause clipping.  You know, I could see them wanting to increase the volume levels a bit but this was bad. For these last few years I'm getting more and more nauseous about this whole stupid affair.  It's almost like if you're not a tech-head, then you don't have any awareness of the chicanery being foisted upon you.  The more informed you are, the more you know you're being buggered.  I wouldn't mind so much if I was at least bought a nice dinner first!  Never getting rid of my vinyl. Ignorance is bliss.  Grrr. PS.  I think Phil Spector IS to blame.  He was the first producer to habitually master his records in the red so they would always sounded louder than everything else.  Back then most folks did not have sophisticated hi-fi equipment, so he made sure all his stuff sounded great coming out of a jukebox or a transistor radio.  In the late 60's and early 70's people had better gear, so he scaled back on his methods accordingly, but by then the damage had already been done... I guess the only solution is to give firearms to Bob Ludwig and Steve Hoffman and let 'em go to town.  Hmm... maybe not Bob.  I haven't checked my Rush remasters yet. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Sep. 24 2008, 03:05 Yeh the Four Little Diamonds things made me smile as well when I read your post yesterday morning.It was actualy playing when I came out of the factory gates and I was thinking to myself.."Oh yes perfect timing..Let`s get the window wound down a little bit and really live it up here" A few years back when I was struggling for some chord ideas for one of my own daft compositions.I thought I would look up the chords for that song and maybe try and "bastardise" it a little bit.I tell you what for what appears as a fairly simplistic rocking little number there are some quite unorthodox little chord sequences going on in that thing.Ab..Eb..Bbm..F..Ab..Eb..Gm..Ab..Bb..B..Yeah I gave up almost immediatly in fact. Respectable Street was probably a good track to choose I mean that album as a whole just does`nt sound right to me somehow.It`s like they put it through a sieve or something you know I don`t know what it is?It`s nice to have a little bit of "technical" back up from the likes of yourself here though.Cheers for that. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 24 2008, 09:32 After tinkering around with the sound editor (basic Nero) a bit more I learned we can add the Rush remasters to the list (et tu, Bob?).  I am happy, though, that the saturation on them isn't as egregious as on CD's that had compression added to them in the mixing stage.  It seems to make a difference there, as opposed to adding it in the mastering phase. Spent a few minutes last night re-reading the XTC booklets, shaking my head at the impossibly small type.  I think they broke my eyes.  When I went to bed and closed my eyes the text of the booklets had imprinted themselves in my brain.  It was exactly the same thing as when I used to overdose on Tetris years ago. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: Sep. 25 2008, 05:05 Quote (Bassman @ Sep. 24 2008, 14:32) Quote Spent a few minutes last night re-reading the XTC booklets, shaking my head at the impossibly small type.  I think they broke my eyes.  When I went to bed and closed my eyes the text of the booklets had imprinted themselves in my brain.  It was exactly the same thing as when I used to overdose on Tetris years ago. Yeah you don`t get much but what you do get is completely illegible without the aid of the hubbel telescope.Speaking of "ignorance is bliss" bassman.. Apparently the Japanese remasters of those XTC albums were a lot more value for money packaging wise.Readable lyrics,photographs of the band from the same time period etc.All nicely bound in cool little cardoboard sleeves...Yeah it pissed me off when I found out as well.They don`t even cost any extra to buy the bloody things..Depending where you shop,some of them are even cheaper in fact...Aaaarrrggghh!!! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 25 2008, 20:46 How did this, after starting as a discussion about audio features, end up into a discussion on CD booklets and covers? Another unsolved mystery of the tubular.net board... [I'm being Pythonesque again. Sorry. ] However, I was talking earlier about the bad quality of ABBA's box set. Another weak point of it, connecting to Bassman's and Dirk Star's posts above here, is the CD covers. Yes, they reproduce every single tiny detail of all the original album covers, but the end result is takcy - the covers have no spine and, being printed on opaque paper, lack all of the shining quality that usually makes an album cover stand out. [I've got a couple of ABBA albums from the Eighties - their last two - and they've got shiny covers, so I guess the others had such covers as well. ] I've read on the official ABBA website's forum that there is a Japanese edition [yes, the Rising Sun people yet again!! ] whose covers are much better than the ones in the Complete Studio Recordings box, and the CDs have all the lyrics correctly arranged in sheets within individual albums - unlike the box, where the lyrics are all clustered inside a single book. OK, they're arranged chronologically, but if your favourite ABBA tune ever happens to be "Slipping through my Fingers", you have to flip through the whole book to find its lyrics. And the track index in the book's last pages is printed in a very small type. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

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