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Topic: The WTF?! Factor, We need cooperation to find its meaning< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Johnny Owl Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 09:13

Quote

people generally don't enjoy being challenged too hard, it creates a stress response.
(Korgscrew @ Nov. 06 2005, 01:34)


That's what probably made him close my topic. He felt that he was being challenged too hard. He could have left the topic to its course, instead he chose to close it unilaterally.

There's an explanation for this. Here comes to great help the work of Adorno. In The Authoritarian Personality he said that one of the variables to gauge this type of personality was the Anti-intraception: opposition to the subjective, the imaginative, the tender-minded. I think this has been crystal clear when Korgscrew said the following:

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It's not the core theory here that's ridiculous, it's the way it's presented.


Another one was Authoritarian Aggression: tendency to be on the lookout for, and to condemn, reject, and punish people who violate conventional values. Here:

Quote

so I suggest you go and do your not caring somewhere else and come back when you've learnt how to function in the real world rather than the one of your theories.


Another variable was Sex: Exaggerated concern with sexual "goings-on.". He finally said:

Quote

Also, in case there's any doubt, mine's definitely bigger.


I think that's enough. Anyway, you can have fun finding the other ones.

But there's another explanation for what has been going on here, too. Here comes to help the famous study of Sheriff on the relations between two groups:

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In a famous study, Sheriff and others (Sheriff & Hovland, 1961) designed a boys' camp to study relations between two groups. The boys did everything with the same group, soon friendships and group spirit developed. Then the psychologists had the groups compete with each other in tug-of-war and various games. At first, there was good sportsmanship, but soon tension and animosity developed. There was name-calling, fights, and raids on the "enemy" cabins. Anger was easily created via competition, but could the experimenters create peace? The psychologists tried getting the groups together for good times--good food, movies, sing-alongs, etc. What happened? The anger continued. The groups threw food at each other, shoved, and yelled insults.

Next, the psychologists set up several situations where the two groups had to work together to get something they wanted. There was a break in the water line that had to be fixed (or camp would be closed). The food truck broke down and it took everyone's cooperation to push it. When they worked together on these serious, important tasks, they didn't fight. Indeed, friendships developed. Just as competition led to friction among equals, cooperative work led to positive feelings. Ask yourself: when did our country last cooperate with the Russians, the Japanese, the Chinese, or the Cubans to educate or feed hurting people? Or, when did you last work meaningfully with the people you view negatively?

source


The groups YOU created are: the usual posters of this forum, and me. You managed to do that also by saying that what I said was ridicolous (to you) because of the way it was presented. You can accuse me of having called the topic too pompously and having used too many pompous words in my posts, but you can't say they are ridicolous. Ridicolous is WTF!. Pompous is WTF?.

The only thing that I wanted to get to was a cooperation in finding what the fuck the WTF?! is. But when things started to get interesting, you abruptly stopped everything.

Anyway, since freedom of expression is something that nobody will ever take from any human being, I start a new topic to reply to what Alan D said in the other one (I find Alan D's posts interesting):

Quote

The key moments in engaging with great art are the moments when I cease to be aware of myself at all.


This is absolutely right. But who is that ceases to be aware of himself? It's still you. You can't escape you, as you said.
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stevenmd779 Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 10:07

The WTF?! thing doesn't matter anymore. I like music because it's the music I like. Why don't you go discuss something else before you get banned.

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"A people who would sacrifice liberty for security will lose both, and deserve neither." Ben Franklin

Boogs is fo' da chode man.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 10:33

I don't think this thread is challenging the admin, and thus the whole forum, and I don't think it's quite childish and trollish. I also don't think it's arrogant: a clear case of e=mc^2.

Please, people, don't think about what I just said. If you do, you'll realise it's poppycock.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 11:21

Quote (Johnny Owl @ Nov. 09 2005, 14:13)
I find Alan D's posts interesting

Thank you.
But may I offer some suggestions? Korgscrew is one of the most knowledgeable, well-balanced and intelligent posters on this board. (And if you listen to some of his music you'll discover another part of him that you're unaware of.) He does an admirable but largely thankless task as an administrator, and it's evident to most of us that it's largely because of him that this board is the success that it is. Sometimes that presents him with decisions to make that others may question, but the important thing is that the community here keeps running wonderfully well despite some very heated debates.

Somewhere along the line Johnny, you tackled Korg head-on and the interchange rapidly became difficult. Not only was that unfair to him; it also was unwise on your part - because he has a great deal of insight that would have helped you to clarify your own ideas, I believe. What you choose to do and say is entirely your concern, but I can't help observing that if your approach had been different and less confrontational - if your posts had been shorter so that people could absorb your suggestions more easily - we might have been really getting somewhere in this discussion.

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This is absolutely right. But who is that ceases to be aware of himself? It's still you. You can't escape you, as you said.
May I suggest you go back and read my CS Lewis quotation again? The point is that I am never more myself than when I am fully engaged with great art - but at such times all my attention is outward, not inward. It's a mysterious paradox - but one that's familiar to anyone who's experienced it (including you, I'm sure).
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CuNimb Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 12:01

Not another load of this twaddle... :(

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Happy? ha ha ha....
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dreamweaver Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 12:29

Korg cheated  :p  using his mod powers to have the last word... oh and yes his IS definitely bigger
;)


--------------
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-Life to spell:
And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
And answer'd "I Myself am Heaven and Hell:"
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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 12:56

mr owl, I bet he's a hoot down at the local.

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I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 13:29

No offence, but I think this came to the point where you either like this difficult, but sometimes highly interesting filosophilcal stuff, or you don't and if you don't maybe it's time to stop saying that in posts and just move on to another topic... :)

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"And now we're going to play Platinum!"
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stevenmd779 Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 14:29

It's not that I don't like philisophical stuff, (even though I don't understand it) but this topic was already locked once because it's not getting anywhere except arguing.

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"A people who would sacrifice liberty for security will lose both, and deserve neither." Ben Franklin

Boogs is fo' da chode man.
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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 14:34

Well, Steven, you're right about that, yes...
got a point, but it's to Korgscrew to decide, luckily  :)


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"And now we're going to play Platinum!"
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The Man who is He.. Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 15:52

Quote (The Big BellEnd @ Nov. 09 2005, 12:56)
mr owl, I bet he's a hoot down at the local.

I doubt that. He's most likely barred from the local for emptying the place. He's only welcome 10 mins before last orders.
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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 17:09

I want to hear Johnny Owl's opinions on things other than his 'theory'. Basically, if you guys wish to have a dual of apparent intelligence, do so in mile long emails!  ;)

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When the night's on fi-ya, do you need love's arms to hold yew? :D
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 18:19

Quote (Johnny Owl @ Nov. 09 2005, 14:13)
That's what probably made him close my topic. He felt that he was being challenged too hard. He could have left the topic to its course, instead he chose to close it unilaterally.

Well yes, you were being rude...you provoked it. Was it not what you wanted? I gave you enough warning...and the fact that my quote rings true in this situation shows that I do know a thing or two ;)
You and I are in very different situations here. You can come and just pay attention to the one topic (though really, I don't think that's a good idea...maybe I'll come back to that later). I can't - I have to pay attention to all of them, and also take care of the concerns of all the members...and, surprisingly enough, sometimes I even engage in friendly chat with them! Well, I guess even Hitler was friendly some of the time...

I don't know where you get the idea about an opposition to the tender-minded. Tender suggests caring, and you've indicated on more than one occasion that you don't care about the feelings of the people here. That's why we closed it. If you had cared about us, perhaps I'd have cared more about you.
When Inkanta confronted you about the racist material in one of your posts, you could have responded "Sorry that I annoyed you, but I didn't feel that the way I said it was offensive".  Instead you indicated that you couldn't care less, and used offensive language. Maybe you like the sound of those words, but other people don't, and that's what successful communication with others is about - understanding what they're going to like hearing. Maybe you don't feel that people here deserve your concern. There's nothing to stop you feeling that, but you must realise that in turn, people will show no concern for you...as I did...and look where that got us.

You indicate it was a unilateral decision, but it wasn't. We're a team here and you'd succeeded in being rude to several of us. What did you expect that would get you, exactly - us fawning over your every word?

Quote
tendency to be on the lookout for, and to condemn, reject, and punish people who violate conventional values.

Yeah, that's pretty much us. Actually, talking of Hitler, I can do a pretty good impersonation of him...
But really, much as it might be nice to imagine this to be an oasis of freedom where people can do absolutely whatever they want, it doesn't work. Let things run free and it ends up like Lord of the Flies...
Try it if you like. You're free to open up a forum of your own, where you can run things as you like and say what you like. When people get upset, you will be the one they come crying to, or shaking their fists threatening a lawsuit over whatever slander you've allowed your users to publish about each other. You'll be made to care about it eventually.
That's why we make decisions like closing topics, deleting posts, banning members and so on...strangely, because we care.

Now, that we created some kind of division...I'd encourage you to look again. Remember what I said about not visiting more than one topic? There's the crucial mistake. You holed yourself up in your own camp (it even had your name on it), rather than mingling with the community. You emailed me at one point, before any trouble between us started. I emailed back and I believe I asked you about the nature of your research, but got no reply...that could have been an opportunity to engage with me and become friendly, but you didn't take it. Neither did you take the opportunity to become friendly with Inkanta. You could have privately messaged one of us about this matter too, explaining why you felt it was wrong to close the topic, and what intellectual benefit it had. Instead you chose to attempt to undermine - do you always make friends that way?
Perhaps you have been eagerly private messaging everyone else on the board, engaging in friendly discourse, but the way people react towards you suggests otherwise.
People here don't just blindly follow me or anyone else - they can be pretty critical thinkers. As your post was the first one in that topic, you had complete control over the opening mood there. People quite regularly disagree with things I say, when their opinions differ - I thought you'd have noticed that during the extensive reading which you did of the forum before you made your first post.

Now...
ridiculous |r??d?kj?l?s| adjective
deserving or inviting derision or mockery; (Oxford English dictionary)

Seems your posts have attracted their fair share of derision and mockery, so I think it's safe to say they can be called ridiculous. There's another issue at stake here though isn't there, and let's get to it. I offended you when I said that, didn't I? It was a pretty nasty thing to say, and I said it because I felt you were asking for it by being so flagrantly rude to Inkanta.
Well, here's what I say to that: sorry. You might have had it coming, but it wasn't very nice. Like I said before, us admins actually aren't here to make life hell for the users. Still, if you want us to be nice to you, it's a good idea to be nice to us.

As for sex...I meant that my ego's bigger. What did you think I meant?
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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 18:23

yeah it's all a bit the emperor's new clothe's

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I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 18:29

Quote (The Bell(end) @ Nov. 09 2005, 22:09)
I want to hear Johnny Owl's opinions on things other than his 'theory'.

Exactly what I was saying about mingling in the community...

But I'd also agree with others that matters such as these can be interesting, and that we shouldn't have some kind of ban on talking about anything deeper than "I love Tubular Bells" "Earth Moving sucks" type discussion. At the same time, none of us administrating here have the time for people who not only offend us and other users, but don't care that they're doing it.
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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 18:48

Quote (Johnny Owl @ Nov. 09 2005, 08:13)
That's what probably made him close my topic. He felt that he was being challenged too hard. He could have left the topic to its course, instead he chose to close it unilaterally.

J. Owl, you are way off-base with that remark.  You are making assumptions, just like in other areas. Why did you assume it was a unilateral decision to close the topic? Well, now you know that it wasn’t—that there are several administrators wandering around here, including the owner.  There are ways to challenge people and ways not to. You’ve attacked one of the most collaborative (and fun to collaborate with), brilliant, thinking persons here, and worse yet, you’ve once again attacked an administrator. You restart the topic and immediately slam an administrator.  Owl stew is sounding quite good…..and….we have a chef around here someplace who could probably do quite a bit with it…… now what spices would be good….

I have now sat on this post for a few hours.  I flew off the (broom)handle a bit, have now toned it down--you should have seen it before--which is why sometimes it’s good to wait awhile before posting.

Korgscrew and I have been chatting about this, and what he says (because he has shared it with me) is actually much more contained and rational than where I was heading, though we made some of the exact same points and our comments may overlap.  I don’t have time to take out all of the redundancy.  

When it comes down to it, this is a private Board—there is an owner, and there are administrators. Over the years, the admins have been amazingly consistent and level-headed, and that is not changing—it is one reason that this place has worked well for a long time, as opposed to a certain musician’s Board, which soon found itself flung into a cyber black hole, out of exasperation.

Korg is spot on about why we close or delete topics or posts. Various reasons indeed, e.g., redundancy, inappropriateness, arguing, etc. Administrators do not have to conduct a public opinion poll before doing such things. If you do not like it, go someplace else and start your own Mike Oldfield Board. Start your own Johnny Owl WTF Research Institute, whatever.  We try our best to be consistent and fair.

From my POV, I have seen primarily 2,000-word posts from you. I don’t think you’ve ever posted in any forum topic other than the one you created. Not that it is required to post anyplace if you visit tubular.net, or necessarily a bad thing if you don’t, but generally people who are inspired to contribute 2,000 word posts say a word or two in other topics. It made me question your motive for being here, and I never figured out an answer. True, some of the musicians pretty-much stay to the fan track etc. section, and that’s fine—they are making incredible contributions for the listening enjoyment of the community.  This is a bit different.

Reading your posts generally takes a lot of effort because of their size and sometimes absurdity. As I mentioned, I found your entire contention surrounding the WTF factor bad science and inaccurate (e.g., generations turns for one of several). Maybe it was the way that it was presented—underneath it all, you might actually have a point—I don’t know—I left my archaeological tools in New York.  If I am going to read 2,000 word anythings, it’s generally not going to be in this arena, unless I can quickly establish the content, authority, accuracy, bias, and currency (if appropriate). This is not a scholarly Board—that’s not to say that it couldn’t lead to collaboration between members on some type of scholarly effort. I am also not implying that intellectual/philosophical discussions do not populate this Board, because they do—and generally, they’re very good and sometimes spirited (in a positive sense) exchanges.

If you are going to be here on tubular.net, please don’t beat everyone over the head with 2,000 posts, definitions, and Latin. Believe it or not, the folks that hang out here are a pretty astute bunch and generally do not need you to define words or terms for them.  You might also try to write more concisely—it truly is an art, but it might lead to greater understanding and positive communication. So…size may indeed matter (at least in that capacity).  

Regarding the post that I deleted, I still think it was probably a good thing to do, because it was racially and ethnically charged. The other night you stereotyped another group of people, and I probably should have deleted that one too, but one of the other member’s response was so appropriate that it seemed better to leave it.  It is entirely possible to make points without such remarks, and if you really feel that way about different cultures and ethnic groups, please take a course in anthropology.

Finally, a lot of these things I’d rather be saying to you in a PM, but I know that you don’t really give a “rat’s a,” and in that you are an owl, that rather surprises me.


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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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The Man who is He.. Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 20:24

Quote (Inkanta @ Nov. 09 2005, 18:48)
….we have a chef around here someplace who could probably do quite a bit with it…… now what spices would be good….

How about I do something Italian with it? But the Italians wouldn't eat it, because they have not developed a taste for Bullshit as Mr Owl claims they have.
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Johnny Owl Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 21:08

Quote

I like music because it's the music I like.


That's perfectly fine. That's the WTF!. De gustibus non disputandum est, and I perfectly agree with that.

But the WTF? is another story. In other words, why does music attract us, everyone of us? Why something so abstract as music (which is just music) can speak to us so deeply?

I gave an interpretation. I think it's the strangeness of it that attracts us. Maybe it attracts us because it is so different from us (we are made of flesh, bones, blood, concrete things; music is made of waves setting our eardrums in motion, it's air). The more the different, the more it attracts us. So I proposed the feeling of strangeness when first listening a piece of music as the gauge of this WTF?. At first listening, because the subsequent listenings make it a "memory", and in the long run a memory can't suprise us anymore.

Empathy, imitation: when I am watching an acrobat walking on a suspended wire, I feel what it would be like to be there, and I'm thrilled. When I watch the twin towers crumbling down to earth, I imagine what it would be like to be there, and I'm terribly scared. When I listen to a piece of music, which is air in motion, I feel what it would be like to be air in motion. The stranger the music is, the stranger I feel. If I feel stranger, it's generally beautiful: I am me and I am not me. But if the piece of music is very strange (take Amarok) I feel very strange: this might frighten me (difference causes fear) and upset me (fear causes hatred), and one might like these feelings, or not.

But the WTF? is an objective feeling. If two persons were to look at the same object and move until the object looks exactly the same, they would end up standing inside one another. From this point everything looks the same and feels the same what ever direction they look at. But each observer is obviously free to like what he/she is looking at/feeling, or not (WTF!). This, in a visual experience. With music, all this is even more true, because a piece of music sounds exactly the same to everyone. There can't be errors, different "points of view": when we listen to the music, everyone perceives the same notes. So, it's natural that everyone shares the same objective point of view - everyone feels strange when listening to a piece of music (WTF?). The degree of this strangeness largely depends on the object, rather than the subject, since the point of view is the same. After that, everyone can make up his/her mind about whether he/she likes this strangeness or not (WTF!).

Quote

I am never more myself than when I am fully engaged with great art - but at such times all my attention is outward, not inward.


Well, for me it's like a two-faced Janus, with inward and outward being the two faces. This is me and this is not me. I am me and I am not me. Maybe it's this very contradiction that fuels the strangeness of the WTF?.

It's also the concept of the poem which I posted before, L'Infinito (The Infinite) by Giacomo Leopardi. This poem is not only beautiful but also clever. It's poignant. Take a look at the translation (don't look at it if you haven't heard the poem before). The device which allows Leopardi to "feel the infinite" is actually the hedgerow "which closes in the view so well that one need hardly look upon the west".

Now, the translation is wrong in:

"But sitting and reflecting, from out of the endless expanse of night sky"

which in italian actually is

"But sitting and staring at the boundless spaces beyond it" (it = the hedgerow)

(here's why translations of poems are bad, they can completely distort the sound and the meaning of the original)

Anyway, we can see that it's a boundary, the hedgerow, which makes it possible to imagine the boundless spaces beyond it. If this boundary was not there, that wouldn't have been possible. The very feeling of the limit, the fact that I'm limited as a human being, opens the possibility for the eternal, the infinite, the indefinite.

Art is like a tool which allows a man to feel the infinite, as a result of this contrast between "This is me" and "This is not me". Music makes you feel the indefinite (WTF?) and, at the same time, it makes you feel the boundary of yourself: but it's actually the boundary of yourself which allows you to feel the indefinite. You need yourself to transcend yourself. That's why I said: "the music is a tool: when you pay attention to it, in reality you pay attention to yourself".


Thus within
This immensity my thoughts are drowned...
And it is sweet to be shipwrecked in this sea.
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timshen Offline




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Posted: Nov. 09 2005, 22:07

As Korgscew said Mr.Owl, "I don't know where you get the idea about an opposition to the tender-minded. Tender suggests caring, and you've indicated on more than one occasion that you don't care about the feelings of the people here. That's why we closed it. If you had cared about us, perhaps I'd have cared more about you."

It's amazing that you seem to ignore all that has been said and still rant and rave concerning your 'theories'. We're much more interested in you as a person than your "theories", and the way you're going is making us less interested even in you as a person as you seem oblivious to the feelings and suggestions of others.

This thread is now turning once more into the previous one, which was barred - justifiably so! I'm proud to be a member of this forum as I have, through the years, seen the wisdom and care of the administrators and fully back their decisions (although I don't always agree with their opinions).

Well, time to move on to other threads ... this one has taken up too much of my time :-)

BTW: Korgscrew and Inkanta - thankyou for demonstrating reasoned and caring skills as administrators - most of us appreciate it!


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Attempt Great Things.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Nov. 10 2005, 00:57

Quote (Johnny Owl @ Nov. 09 2005, 14:13)
I think that's enough. Anyway, you can have fun finding the other ones.

Did the test, came out at 2.3 recurring, a 'liberal airhead' (how complimentary :D). I think it's important to remember that everyone is going to show some of the assessed personality traits to a certain degree. We could say that in posting this, you are showing "Preoccupation with the dominance-submission, strong-weak, leader-follower dimension;" and "Destructiveness and Cynicism: Generalized hostility, vilification of the human." (I'd call your declaring human experience 'bullshit' vilification of the human, for example, and it seems to us like you're trying to act as a destructive force here. You're also rather cynical about my personality, it seems). Does this make you a fascist? Under your criteria, it may well do...

I'd also like to make clear that my toothbrush-moustache is strictly a sign of my appreciation of Charlie Chaplin.
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