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Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: June 08 2008, 09:33 Apologies first for pinching my thread title from Nightspore in a discussion in another thread.But I just could`nt resist using that name because it made me laugh out loud when I read it.Anyway rather than continue to take that thread further off topic than it already is.And I must admit I`ve got to take full responsability for that really.I thought I`d start a new thread where people can maybe discuss some of the influences on Mike Oldfield that they don`t like.Or to paraphrase Nightspore again that they`re maybe not too comfortable with. When asked about his influences/favourite music in the past.Mike Oldfield has seemingly had no qualms about listing stuff like The Rise And Fall Of Flingel Bunt from The Shadows.Alongside maybe pieces from Sibelius or Philip Glass.That`s how it appears to me anyway,and looking at it logically that`s how a lot of his music appears to me as well. As a young kid I was always a big fan of The Shadows even though right from day one I was aware of their kind of cheesyness relating to that whole era they came from.A few years ago the American musician Chris Issak appeared on the Jools Holland show over here to perform.During a short interlude in the proceedings Jools asked him about some of his influences etc and Issak had no hesitation in mentioning The Shadows.I was actually a little bit chuffed when he said it because being from over the pond and despite that heavy use of the tremelo arm in his own music.I was convinced he was going to say The Ventures or maybe Cliff Gallup or somebody I don`t know.But anyway Jools plays Issak this film clip of The Shadows performing at the London Paladium or something in about 1961.And of course they`re in their suits grinning like idiots,and doing the whole step over walk thing.And the expression on Issak`s face is absolutley priceless he`s practically picking his jaw up off the floor in fact.Because all those years of listening and he`s never seen them.You know he`s completely unaware of how naff they probably appear to most people over here.But I dare say he probably walked away from that show still a big fan of their music.Well you`d kind of hope so anyway. More recently of course Mike has been influenced by stuff from the Ibiza scene/trance music.And dare I say the dreaded E word...Enigma!..So Enigma there`s a name to conjour with.I believe I`m right in thinking that the guy behind Enigma Michael Cretu appeared in some capacity on Mike Oldfield`s Islands album.I have to admit Enigma come over pretty cornball to me,but you know I do actually like some of it.That said the first time I heard Hibernaculum on TSODE I did feel very uncomfortable listining to it.I just thought it was too full on a rip-off at first.Maybe I still do?But you know with all due respect I prefer Mike`s take on that whole Enigma style I suppose.He made heavy use of it on L&S no question.But just recently I find myself enjoying that album more and more.And the whole thing about influences of course is it`s not a required element for the listener to like them anyway.That said the only album of Mike`s I really can`t listen to is Earth Moving.I`ve just got a complete emotional block on most of that AOR 80`s stuff.And try as I might I really can`t get past that at all. And now Mike goes classical which I think I always thought would happen one day.The classical influences have always been there no doubt but now it`s actually classified as such.Even though imo it`s still very much a "Mike Oldfield Album" with all the influences that particular singular category is made up of.I don`t listen to a lot of classical/orchestral music I must admit.I`ve kind of got to be pushed towards it either by friends or more recently by some of the posts I`ve read on here.Some of it I really like though but it`s hard work for me at times.Maybe I`m not comfortable with hard work that would`nt surprise me at all actually.Mainly because of my whole ignorance on Classical music,I can only really talk about it on an emotional level.I must admit that frustrates me somewhat,and I`ve actually tried to kind of bluff my way through posts on here sometimes pretending I know otherwise.Consequently falling flat on my backside I may add.So kind of like the influences themselves you should always try to be true to yourself I suppose.Maybe one day I`ll finally learn that lesson and then I`ll probably drop down dead through the whole shock of the experience. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 08 2008, 12:41 Quote (Dirk Star @ June 08 2008, 14:33) Mainly because of my whole ignorance on Classical music,I can only really talk about it on an emotional level.I must admit that frustrates me somewhat,and I`ve actually tried to kind of bluff my way through posts on here sometimes pretending I know otherwise.Consequently falling flat on my backside I may add.So kind of like the influences themselves you should always try to be true to yourself I suppose. I think the big question, Mick, is what constitutes 'ignorance'. There's a wonderful quote from Vaughan Williams somewhere that's relevant to this - let me see if I can find it. Yes, here it is: "Would Ulysses have been obliged to be lashed to the mast if the sirens instead of singing to him had shown him a printed score? When the trumpet sounding the charge rouses the soldier to frenzy, does anyone suggest that it would have just the same effect if he took a surreptitious glance at Military Sounds and Signals?" What counts is the impact of the music on the listener, and in my view, someone who is being moved close to tears when listening to Mahler's 5th is probably having a far more valuable and true engagement with the music than (say) someone who listens to it following a score with the prime intent of quibbling about the interpretation. (I'm not saying that being able to follow the music with a score is a bad thing - on the contrary. But depending on the spirit in which it's undertaken, it can be destructive as well as constructive, and ignorance can take many forms.) One of the marvellous things about Mike Oldfield is the way he trashes the boundaries. Listening to Hergest Ridge for the first time was a kind of epiphany, for me - it was part of the process of discovering that things don't have to be categorised 'this' or 'that'. They can be both. I was getting the same kind of haunting, ethereal 'musical landscape' experience from Hergest Ridge as I had been getting from Vaughan Williams; but also I was getting the same kind of thrilling pulses of excitement as I could get from a Keith Richards guitar riff. Mike Oldfield trampled the barriers down, and thank goodness for that; and thank goodness for that wide multiplicity of influences he had (and has). That's where an important part of his genius lies (and also why I think Music of the Spheres is a welcome but maybe not all that important addition to his oeuvre.) Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: June 08 2008, 16:06 [quote=Alan D,June 08 2008, 17:41][/quote] Quote One of the marvellous things about Mike Oldfield is the way he trashes the boundaries. Oh yes you`ve really got to admire him for that undoutably.And then becuase of that you kind of want to find out and discover some of those influences for yourself.If it had`nt have been for Mike I probably would have been completely oblivious to people like Philip Glass and Steve Reich.And then a whole host of other people that those two composers led me to as well.I`m not saying I love everything those two gentlemen have done far from it.But you know enough to derive a good deal of pleasure from and admire.And then at the other end of the scale for myself personally.Mike Oldfield has kind of helped me to appreciate more modern dance and world music.Especially the dance music side of it because about 10-15 years ago I probablly looked down on a lot of that stuff.And then folk music as well for me came out of a love for Mike Oldfield I think inadvertantly.You know there`s so much I`ve got to thank him for it`s ridiculous.Of course there`s so many influences going on in his music there`s simply no way people are going to like all of the roads that may take them down.They may even to decide to leave that road alone for whatever reason they see fit.It makes for one hell of a fantastic ride though imo. Here`s a little quote from the late composer Simon Jeffes whose band/ensemble The Penguin Cafe Orchestra I was a big admirer of... After becoming disillusioned with the rigid structures of classical music and the limitations of rock music, in which he also dabbled, Jeffes became interested in the relative freedom in ethnic music and decided to imbue his work with the same sense of immediacy and spirit. Describing how the idea of the Penguin Cafe Orchestra came to him, Jeffes said: “ In 1972 I was in the south of France. I had eaten some bad fish and was in consequence rather ill. As I lay in bed I had a strange recurring vision, there, before me, was a concrete building like a hotel or council block. I could see into the rooms, each of which was continually scanned by an electronic eye. In the rooms were people, everyone of them preoccupied. In one room a person was looking into a mirror and in another a couple were making love but lovelessly, in a third a composer was listening to music through earphones. Around him there were banks of electronic equipment. But all was silence. Like everyone in his place he had been neutralized, made grey and anonymous. The scene was for me one of ordered desolation. It was as if I were looking into a place which had no heart. Next day when I felt better, I was on the beach sunbathing and suddenly a poem popped into my head. It started out 'I am the proprietor of the Penguin Cafe, I will tell you things at random' and it went on about how the quality of randomness, spontaneity, surprise, unexpectedness and irrationality in our lives is a very precious thing. And if you suppress that to have a nice orderly life, you kill off what's most important. Whereas in the Penguin Cafe your unconscious can just be. It's acceptable there, and that's how everybody is. There is an acceptance there that has to do with living the present with no fear in ourselves "I will tell you things at random"..I absolutely love that.And spontaniety,suprise and irrationality as well so much of that is applicable to the music of Mike Oldfield as well I think.Fantastic stuff. Something I have`nt mentioned yet is the influence of the old silver dollar of course.I`m not saying some people on this forum are wrong to question Mike`s reason for doing things a certain way sometimes.I`ve even done it myself on here on the odd occasion.But sometimes I feel if people don`t like something of Mike`s.Or they maybe feel that that style of music is beneath him somehow.I often think people are a little bit too quick to say "Oh he must`ve done it for the money."..I just think it`s a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to it all sometimes.By the same token I am aware that Mike can be very buisness savvy to a certain extent.You know I would love to believe that Branson had a gun pointed at his head when he made Earth Moving for instance.But I don`t feel that was wholly the case.Besides which I`ve read enough positive comments on that album to realise that my own prejudices and preferences are going to cloud my judgement on it anyway.As you said yourself Alan "What counts is the impact of the music on the listener" Quite correct! Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: June 12 2008, 17:11 Coolest topic title so far. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 17 2008, 02:00 Quote (Dirk Star @ June 08 2008, 09:33) I thought I`d start a new thread where people can maybe discuss some of the influences on Mike Oldfield that they don`t like.Or to paraphrase Nightspore again that they`re maybe not too comfortable with. I don't know about specific influences, but I don't care much for the Blues. Thankfully, Mike has done very few such pieces. That said, I've grown fond of "Ringscape" (Light + Shade) as well as the original "Snowy Owl" (Tr3s Lunas II?) piece it was based on. Same with the Hillbilly stuff. Well, I guess there's only one instance I can think of, "Moonshine" (Tubular Bells II), but that's enough to make me wanna say 'No more!'. That's not to say I think it's a bad piece. In fact, I even get a kick out of it sometimes. But I just happen to be anti-Hillbilly. Quote (Dirk Star @ June 08 2008, 09:33) ...the only album of Mike`s I really can`t listen to is Earth Moving.I`ve just got a complete emotional block on most of that AOR 80`s stuff. Not my favorite stuff, either. Quote (Dirk Star @ June 08 2008, 09:33) ...I`ve actually tried to kind of bluff my way through posts on here sometimes pretending I know otherwise.Consequently falling flat on my backside I may add.So kind of like the influences themselves you should always try to be true to yourself I suppose. I hadn't noticed you falling on your backside, Dirk. But then, I'm not very knowledgeable about a lot of the subjects that pop up, and I definitely feel my lack of education, at times. Which is one of the reasons I like coming here - to learn new things and broaden my horizons. That and to smile at the frequent humor on display. In any case, I always find your posts worth reading. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: June 17 2008, 04:56 Well it was in one of the threads in MOTS where myself and Alan D were discussing what constituted a classical work or something.I think it was probably in the "is tubular bells all he`s ever gonna` do thread"...(repitition is that a bad influence I wonder?...Ah no don`t dig that up again for Gawd`s sakes  )...Anyway in one of my posts I lifted a load of quotes from an online piece on the subject.And for all I did put some of it in quotation marks I was basically trying to palm it off as my own thoughts on it.Well some of it was of course it was just explained a lot better than I could.Anyway what a bloody mess.I have enough trouble with sentance construction as it is.And sorting out my own mish-mash of contradictions without dragging some other dude`s ideas in here.But that`s me I have to try and keep a lid on that I really do.Btw have you ever replied to a post to Alan D and get about two thirds in and realise he`s right?..."The more familiar you become with the artist the easier it becomes to appreciate their music. "....Errr no it does`nt...I nearly turned myself inside out replying to that thing,man what an eye opener.I would`ve never considered in a million years that it`s often quite the reverse in fact.Bloody hell man!       Sweetpea I find it hard to believe that you sometimes feel your lack of education in here.Your posts are always so eloquent and well reasoned to me.There again though there`s such a wide range of subjects going on in here sometimes I think that`s only natural to some extent.My problem is that my own lack of education comes to the fore in every subject.Even the ones I think I know something about.But I like that now because I think you just end up disliking yourself otherwise.I`ve learnt a lot myself no question,and not just about the music of Mike Oldfield.Just last week for instance I learned that it`s "denigrate" and not "degenerate"..Well I already knew that really but it still did`nt stop me typing out the wrong bloody word..         Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 22 2008, 19:12 Quote (Dirk Star @ June 17 2008, 04:56) Sweetpea I find it hard to believe that you sometimes feel your lack of education in here. Thanks, Dirk. Apparently you didn't see how much I was sweating in the old "Romanticism" topic.   ETA Oops. I meant to say "glowing" not "sweating". -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

ommadawn69 Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: June 2002 Posted: June 24 2008, 04:48 This is a good read, great topic. I believe in many artists that they do experiment with other styles and ideas to make new music. And I loved the mention that Mike had trashed the boundaries, you are so correct (sorry I don't remember what member said it). Mike, in the early days, had used so many different styles of music to make his long instrumentations. Who in their right mind would use African drumming with rock/celtic/pop/folk music? How brilliant is that? For the 80's music of Mike, he blended his ideas with the pop culture of the 80's music. And with the help of Richard Branson of course wanting Mike to make hit records, he recorded stuff that hit radio waves. Maybe making more fans worldwide, but I felt with the whole Virgin problem with Mike he didn't have the freedom to do what he wanted, hence albums like Islands, Earth Moving, Heaven's Open etc. Not his best work, but still some strong songs on those albums. For the mention of Enigma, people can say what they want, but me personally I rather like Enigma alot. I have followed that aspect of Michael Cretu's career since the beginning. I do enjoy Mike using his influence of that sort of dance/industrial/New Age sound, I think it was something that sounded really good, with SODE. Brilliant!!!!, even though there was some elements of Enigma sounds there. As long as I like hearing it, that's all I care about. I couldn't care less about the "Tubular Bells" feel to Music of the Spheres, I love listening to that whole album, with it's classical feel, and Mike's sound thrown in, sounds wonderful. Now, I myself, am no expert on expressing myself with music wise wonderfully like some of you, I love reading what many of you have to say, but still we all write from the heart. That is what I love here. We are passionate for Mike's music, if we weren't I doubt we would be here. But yet we all have our own opinions on certain albums, songs, styles that Mike uses now and has used in the past. I find Mike to be very unique. Whether some of his stuff has been used by others, who cares. Music is music, no matter who influenced what. If it wasn't for influences we would never have found other great artists/bands in music. If it wasn't for listening to Mike Oldfield I would have never found out about Gong, Hevia, Steeleye Span, Steve Hillage, Alan Hodsworth, Hansford Rowe, Kevin Ayers, Soft Machine, etc among others. So much music out there to find, to listen, and to love. And I love finding out about other artists/bands from not only Mike's collaborations, but from other Mike Oldfield fans that I have met who introduced me to Hevia, and Jean Michael Jarre, among others. I just wonder what Mike will come up with next? -------------- http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheAlternativeMikeOldfieldGroup/ Back to top

The Big BellEnd Group: Members Posts: 971 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: June 24 2008, 16:19 Well congratulations Sweatpea on becoming an auntie, is it to a boy or girl hillbilly. Also what a relief to find that when it comes to that old awkward thing we call romance, you sweat a lot, so do I. Glow that is. As for Sir Alan's Epiphany, I'm afraid I can't say that the experience is familiar to me, although having said that when I was very young I suffered from an acute lisp, this in turn made me  nervy and a little insecure and I must admit I piphed myself on several occasion's. -------------- I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 25 2008, 01:52 -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4770 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 28 2008, 23:56 Quote (Dirk Star @ June 08 2008, 09:33) Apologies first for pinching my thread title from Nightspore in a discussion in another thread.But I just could`nt resist using that name because it made me laugh out loud when I read it. Glad you liked it, Dirk. Actually, it came from an Uncle Scrooge comic I remember (along with Elfish Pestly). Back to top

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