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moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: April 01 2006, 04:51 Upon Radio 2 yesterday morning it was mentioned that The Stranglers "Golden Brown" is in 6/8 time possibly 7/8 time,  also mentioned most Status Quo songs are in 2/4 time, and Tubular Bells is "all over the shop". I've been  musing on  this since about 7am yesterday morning.   I've always liked the idea of being musical, have played a guitar on and off since I was seven. It's just recently with some encouragement from friends that I've had a desire to really try and play the guitar again, especially now I have my own space , and I don't get interruptions or told to "shuddup".  My husband would say that my timekeeping is "awful".   I know 4/4 timing is the  most used  often called "common time",  I've been taught to play this as 1,2,3 & 4 on my guitar, all  downstrikes, apart from on the &, where I strike the strings upwards. I know I need to practice my chord changes, so that I can play without pausing.  I'm wondering once I get better at changing chords the best was of keeping time I'd imagine that's to try and play along to the music or buy myself a metronome.  I don't really understand written music, apart from the notes on the lines are EGBDF, "Every Good Boy Deserves Football" and  those in the spaces spell FACE, I know note values , semibrieves, minims, crotchets, and quavers. I can read guitar tab however, do I need to really know written music to be able to play an instrument .   I'm also interested in asking , why is it that music written in unusual time signatures can be music to my ears or just a discordant noise.  A point raised with my husband last year is  how can I like Kevin Ayers and the Whole World,  ( I was loaned some LP's by a neighbour Bob,( he had MS), and didn't initially like it, but with more listens the music has grown on me), but yet I can't get into Frank Zappa, I know much of FZ's music  uses unusual time signatures. I'm wondering if music written using a combination of different timings is more interesting than that using say just common time   . I apologise if this post seems to appear as a incoherent ramble, but what I heard on Radio 2 had me thinking about time signatures in music, and also my practising my guitar   . -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: April 01 2006, 05:14 I think one of Mike's great features in his music is his unusual rythmic qualities. I think it is what sets him apart from others. I know his songs are a simple affair but in the instrumentals he often puts the odd change in which gives the music a musical skip and this can have quite a big effect on the listener. I used to have the score of golden brown and remember it being in a combination of 3/4 and 5/4 time. I am a musician, and composer so understand the effect that complext time sigs can have. My music is rarely in 4/4 and i tend to explore times with an 8 on the bottom (so the quaver is the unit of measurement and not the crotchet) I know mike uses 10/8 a lot, especially in platium and there are lots of time changes in incantations such as 11/8 which we feel as being in 4/4 (like 12/8) but with a little skip. The thing about 10/8 or similar time sigs is the way we divide the beats up. If you take 10/8 and divide it up into 3+3+2+2 and count that, then the feel is very different to 2+2+3+3, and the combinations are vast. I dont know much frank zappa but i suspect the reason you find it hard work is because the harmonic language is harder and more dissonant and i think it has less to do with the rythmic side of things. I hope that makes a little sense? -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 01 2006, 06:33 Music with irregular time signatures can't all be generalised as discordant noise (a discord is a term used when describing harmony), just like you can't say one is more interesting than the other. Being able to play and write music using such devices demonstrates that you are theory-savvy but in the end I think it's the intangible qualities that make music what it is. In the popular Western world we usuallly associate odd time signatures with the 'intelligent' prog rock groups, but they existed in many other cultures long before there was a need to expand on the notated metres offered by classical composers. African and Indian music both employ many diverse and intricate rhythms that look odd when transcribed. Traditional folk music from countries like Bulgaria and Romania characteristically is often in 7/8. TN made a good point that the music you and others think is  cacophonic could be largely down to complex harmonies and the intensity of it. While there are such tracks as King Crimson's Larks' Tounges in Aspic (especially Part 4 on the ConstruKction of Light album) that sound like a virtuosic jumble of time signatures, there are others like Copland's El Salón México, Bernstein's music to West Side Story or even Bill Whelan's music for Riverdance. These are all designed to be popular and appeal to a wide audience, but at the same time they are rhythmically complex to perform. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: April 01 2006, 14:51 Quote (ThisName @ April 01 2006, 05:14) I know mike uses 10/8 a lot, especially in platium and there are lots of time changes in incantations such as 11/8 which we feel as being in 4/4 (like 12/8) but with a little skip. Isn't Platinum 4/4 from start to finish? BTW one odd thing the way In High Places skips a beat here and there. It really works in the context of the song - like a sudden unexpected push on the fast forward button. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: April 01 2006, 15:39 Hi there, when I said platinum i wasnt being specific enough. I meant that the 10/8 parts are in the airborne part of platinum. Sorry for the confusion. One track i still cant figure out is Mount Teide from the complete album. It sounds to me like its mainly in 3/8 but there are some really strage changes of time that i cant figure out. It is really clever and really effectie though and shows that even in a simple and direct 4 minute instrumental, that mike could still make something complex and different! -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: April 01 2006, 15:49 You're right, there's a small section at 2:09. I perceived it as a 5/4 part though, but that's more or less the same thing right? -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: April 01 2006, 17:10 Quote (Jammer @ April 01 2006, 12:33) Music with irregular time signatures can't all be generalised as discordant noise (a discord is a term used when describing harmony), just like you can't say one is more interesting than the other. Being able to play and write music using such devices demonstrates that you are theory-savvy but in the end I think it's the intangible qualities that make music what it is. In the popular Western world we usuallly associate odd time signatures with the 'intelligent' prog rock groups, but they existed in many other cultures long before there was a need to expand on the notated metres offered by classical composers. African and Indian music both employ many diverse and intricate rhythms that look odd when transcribed. Traditional folk music from countries like Bulgaria and Romania characteristically is often in 7/8. TN made a good point that the music you and others think is  cacophonic could be largely down to complex harmonies and the intensity of it. While there are such tracks as King Crimson's Larks' Tounges in Aspic (especially Part 4 on the ConstruKction of Light album) that sound like a virtuosic jumble of time signatures, there are others like Copland's El Salón México, Bernstein's music to West Side Story or even Bill Whelan's music for Riverdance. These are all designed to be popular and appeal to a wide audience, but at the same time they are rhythmically complex to perform. I wasn't generalising that all music with irregular time signatures is discordant noise, far from it, sorry for any misunderstanding there.  I love Tubular Bells, and the timing of that is all over the place.  The point I'm making with TB is when Mike composed  it he was making music to please himself, he wasn't worried if it was a success or not, but it DID sell  and is STILL is selling in its millions.   I seem to remember watching a programme about the Beatles' music, Can't remember what it was called now, but have to see if I can dig the video of it out.  George Harrison brought many Indian rhythms  to The Beatles' music.  It was mentioned that John Lennon's Jealous Guy is based upon an Indian patten. On the programme it was demonstrated by playing what we know as "Jealous Guy" on a group of sitars and it worked perfectly  . Regarding King Crimson, I love "In The Court Of The Crimson King " album, I bought Larks Tounges In Aspic and Lizard expecting something along the lines of ITCOTCK. Lizard appeared to be all "mad jazz" , I've never really got into this album.  I can listen to Jazz, there's a jazz band I knew , would often see them in local pubs/events.  Lark's Tounges In Aspic I think is at the stage where it's growing on me, time to give it another play. I don't think it really matters what timing  music is written in ,if I like a song/piece then I like it regardless of the time sig.     -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: April 01 2006, 17:20 Well, technically that section in Airborne is in 10/8, grouped 3+3+2+2. If you count that grouping at the bar then you will lock perfectly in the groove. I think he uses 10/8 in other pieces s well but i cant think of them off the top of my head. I am interested in his rhythms a lot. I think he does some really cool things with rhythm taht perhaps other badns or prog artsist dont do. -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 01 2006, 17:43 "Airborne" does have those 10/8 sections mentioned above, and it goes 15/4 near the end, too. "Platinum" is entirely 12/8, as far as I remember, and the two final parts are straight 4/4 all the way through. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: April 03 2006, 05:44 I forgot to mention too that Amarok (the opening) is incredibly complex rhythmically and i have no idea how many beats are in the bar after countless atempts at feeling any pulse! It has to be in some time, but its beyond me, so if anyone can put me out of my misery that would be great. What ever happened to that amarok analysis that dissapeared? I never got to read it, was it any good? -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: April 03 2006, 12:25 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 01 2006, 17:43) "Platinum" is entirely 12/8, as far as I remember, and the two final parts are straight 4/4 all the way through. To me, "Platinum" is a hard rock shuffle in 2/4. But my idea of time signatures could be wrong (or unconventional). To me time signature is the combination you put into that little box in Cubase in order to get a suitable click track for the song I'm working on at the moment. I've never learnt it at school or anything. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: April 03 2006, 15:53 Well, its not too complex to learn really. The 12/8 thing is probably more accurate if it were to be ntated but it could equally be in a swung 2 for instance. Wen you start using anything with 8 at the bottom you have to be quite clear on what unit you are using to measure things in. For instance, 5/4 is very different to 5/8 etc There are some great 10/8 sections in incantations part 3 somewhere in the middle where this riff goes round in a circle but it leaves you quite disorientated because its hard to predict where the start is. A wonderful moment though! -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: April 03 2006, 16:43 Quote (ThisName @ April 03 2006, 15:53) There are some great 10/8 sections in incantations part 3 somewhere in the middle where this riff goes round in a circle but it leaves you quite disorientated because its hard to predict where the start is. A wonderful moment though! Are you thinking of the long guitar solo? That sounds like 4/4 time to me... at least that is how I count it. However, the usual "Verses" of this section are 12 measures long....but not always.... which is disorienting. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 03 2006, 16:44 The Steve Farrell analysis of Amarok is still up here: http://tubular.net/amarok/ He doesn't mention what the time signatures are. To me it sounds like four lots of 4/4 and 5/4 then two bars of 4/4, a 3/4 then a 4/4. So 4/4, 5/4, 4/4, 5/4, 4/4, 5/4, 4/4, 5/4, 4/4, 4/4, 3/4, 4/4. Depending on how you interpret it, the 3/4 bar could either be the second from last or third from last. It's slightly over 245bpm measured this way with the fastest note values being quavers or eighth-notes. There was a great Japanese guitarist by the nickname of Ricken who transcribed and played this section on his website. I don't know if it's still up, but the website is written in Japanese. I guess for sequencers it's easier to think of the changing time signatures as one big bar, but if we were writing it down on music, the fast riff intro wouldn't be in 51/4 . Much like I think the TB sheet music for introduction is written as 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/4 (with a quaver upbeat). Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 03 2006, 17:56 Quote (hiawatha @ April 03 2006, 16:43) Are you thinking of the long guitar solo? That sounds like 4/4 time to me... at least that is how I count it. However, the usual "Verses" of this section are 12 measures long....but not always.... which is disorienting. It's the very beginning of the rockier part, immediately after the solo ends. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ThisName Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: July 2005 Posted: April 04 2006, 05:42 Yeah that bit in incantaions is defiantely in 10/8, it happens just before the strings start pulsing in quavers and the vibes come in. I will have to listen to amarok again, i think because of the speed of the playing, it makes it hard to find that pulse. -------------- www.ryanyardmusic.com Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: April 04 2006, 16:52 Quote (ThisName @ April 04 2006, 05:42) I will have to listen to amarok again, i think because of the speed of the playing, it makes it hard to find that pulse. It's just one big blur to me. It's a bit like the fushion-styled bit in Music from the Balcony. I don't fully get that either. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 04 2006, 17:11 Those "crazy" bits in Music From The Balcony are all, oddly enough, plain 4/4. But the insane war of syncopation makes it sound like something else. In fact, judging solely by memory, I don't think there are any "odd" time signatures in that track - only plenty of jazzy, eccentric syncopation. Amarok... now there's something different. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 04 2006, 17:12 I found Ricken's website. The links on the page should be helpful. http://ricklabo.cool.ne.jp/play/Amarok.html He thought of it in quavers with an irregular 2nd bar. Back to top

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