Tubular.net :: Mike Oldfield Forums Discussion, news, reviews, fan music, and more.
	Search :: Members :: Help :: Guidelines

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Mar. 16 2006, 17:58 Quote (Ray @ Mar. 16 2006, 19:36) Ok chaps - I award you all a degree in philisophy of sound.  So here is the next question. When does inprovisation become composition? 1,2,3 go...... When the improvisation is recorded, otherwise it's another case of what the performer (who's improvising or composing) has called it and what you tend to associate the genre of music with. Most, if not all, improvisations will still have some sort of a pre-defined framework that was thought of or composed before any improvising takes place. Conversely, compostions can derive from improvising. Beethoven and Mozart would have composed a fair number of works using ideas that came about from improvising, yet they could still read music. I guess the only time that isn't the case is when a concrète work such as Morton Subotnick's Silver Apples of the Moon is programmed on a machine from start to finish without any realtime human interactivity. More recently, the basic mobile phone ringtones that use beeps have no element of improvisation in them. Back to top

Ray Group: Members Posts: 857 Joined: Jan. 2000 Posted: Mar. 16 2006, 18:24 Hey Jammer - Thanks for New thrteading this - I didnt think of that (or dont know how!! When a jam session is recorded is it not just a record of the improvisation that went on (lets assume it was an improvised jam session). A composition implies some element of planning - does it not?? For example - when Mr Oldfield (We probably have to mention him as it's his forum   ) made up the tunes that went into Tubular bells 1, that may have been inprovisation initially.  But when he started to complie it into an album became composition. The way I thought about this was :  you have a sliding scale with 100% composition at one end and 100% improvisation at the other end.  But you can be any where on that scale depending on what is happening. In the middle you have a 50/50 mix of improvisation and composition. But my Wife - who has a degree in this stuff - argued that even though you are improvising to a blues scale - you are using a scale, so you are working in a fixed framework, so you are only partially improvising.  But I thought that that fitted nicely into my slider model. mmm....... brain notted!!!!  need some....     -------------- Looking out over the harbour in Peel....... Back to top

stevenmd779 Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Mar. 16 2006, 20:16 Composisition is where someone knows what notes they're going to play before they're played. Improvasion is where someone makes up some stuff as he goes along. To compose something, you have to improvise because that's how you make stuff up, but once it's done the makeing stuff up part is done, and it isn't improvising. Just like if someone transcribed an improvised solo, and played it, it wouldn't be improvised. I'm glad I could clear that up. -------------- "A people who would sacrifice liberty for security will lose both, and deserve neither." Ben Franklin Boogs is fo' da chode man. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 03:44 Quote (Ray @ Mar. 16 2006, 23:24) you have a sliding scale with 100% composition at one end and 100% improvisation at the other end.  But you can be any where on that scale depending on what is happening. That seems pretty close, to me. Every live performance contains some degree of improvisation, I imagine. But someone like Dylan improvises quite substantially every time he performs a song, so you never know what you're going to get on the day. Quote my Wife ... argued thateven though you are improvising to a blues scale - you are using a scale, so you are working in a fixed framework, so you are only partially improvising. But without a scale, could you make music sensibly at all? (I really don't know, and seek enlightenment) Doesn't the scale simply give a framework to the improvisation, much as the canvas puts a limit on the picture, or as grammar put limits on a poem? Within that basic framework, you can then proceed to do 100% improvisation, I'd have thought? Ah, maybe I'm starting to see why there could be disagreement. Whether or not you see the improvisation as total, depends on whether you're inside the framework, or outside it. So - if you think all music must start with a scale, then the improvisation can be 100%, for you. But if you think the scale is part of the performance, then you'll see the improvisation as less than 100%, because the scale was pre-established. So it can be whatever you want, depending on whether you define it to be in, or out! Back to top

jonnyw Group: Members Posts: 522 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 06:30 ...when you play it so much it sticks, then the improv becomes compostition. -------------- Grand piano. Reed and pipe organ. Glockenspeil. Bass guitar. Vocal chords. Two slightly sampled electric guitars. The venitian effect. Digital sound processor. And Tubular bells. Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 09:47 Quote (stevenmd779 @ Mar. 16 2006, 20:16) Composisition is where someone knows what notes they're going to play before they're played. Improvasion is where someone makes up some stuff as he goes along. Interesting post, that. Yeah, that's more or less how it works. But after a pieced is finished or recorded, how do you devide what's composed and what's improvised? My opinion is that, once again, it depends on the artist. If he puts out a piece that's supposed to be listened that way, he's improvising. The vast majority of Tubular Bells, for example, is a fixed structure. But take the guitar solo at the end of part 2. Is it supposed to be with exactly those notes, in exactly that order? I wouldn't say so. That is improvising. Much like most jazz out there. Performers don't record jazz music with the intention of imortalising that particular performance. It's pure improvisation, because if you play "So What" with completely different solos, it will still be "So What". Not even the original musicians would play the solos exactly the same way every time. Quote To compose something, you have to improvise because that's how you make stuff up, but once it's done the makeing stuff up part is done, and it isn't improvising. Not everyone compose things by improvising. I don't do so very often. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

stevenmd779 Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 10:01 Quote Not everyone compose things by improvising. I don't do so very often. How do you find a melody then? If a jazz song is played a differant way each time but is still the same song, it's because the solos are improvised, and the chord progressions or main motifs are composed and stay the same. -------------- "A people who would sacrifice liberty for security will lose both, and deserve neither." Ben Franklin Boogs is fo' da chode man. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 12:53 Quote (stevenmd779 @ Mar. 17 2006, 10:01) Quote Not everyone compose things by improvising. I don't do so very often. How do you find a melody then? I don't know, most times, the melody just appears in my mind. I rarely compose with an instrument near me. Other times, I have a rough idea for a song, and the whole thing evolves like it always knew where it was supposed to go. Most recently, I've been using improvisation more often when I'm writing songs, but when it comes to melodies, they just show up. And my job is to tinker them until they feel right. Quote If a jazz song is played a differant way each time but is still the same song, it's because the solos are improvised, and the chord progressions or main motifs are composed and stay the same. Well, yes. But take "Kind Of Blue" as an example, if you will. How much of that album is properly "composed"? Very little. Indeed, the songs are composed to give them a structure, but the real point of the album are the performances. And the pieces weren't "composed" to be played exactly like that. Only the solos are improvised, but the solos are the point. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Ray Group: Members Posts: 857 Joined: Jan. 2000 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 15:56 Apparently the technical term for improvising solos is CADENZA. This is great - I'm pretty impressed with the answers - particularly young Mr Stevenmd's 'clearing up.....' that made me smile! ray -------------- Looking out over the harbour in Peel....... Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Mar. 17 2006, 16:53 The official and most common use of the word cadenza is when describing a solo passage that occurs towards the end of a concerto's first movement. It's still a rather classical-based term. So Yngwie 'J' Malmsteen might play cadenzas in his concerto, but you couldn't say a more modest solo of Mike's was a cadenza. Back to top

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Forums | Links | Instruments | Discography | Tours | Articles | FAQ | Artwork | Wallpapers
Biography | Gallery | Videos | MIDI / Ringtones | Tabs | Lyrics | Books | Sitemap | Contact


Mike Oldfield Tubular.net