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Topic: Where would the beginner start?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 16 2005, 12:31

Here's the background. I've played acoustic guitar for years and years. I sing. That's about it.

But I have a PC. And the question is this. For someone like myself, knowing nothing (except the above), where should I start if I wanted to try my hand at making synthesised music? What would I need to buy, and how much would I need to spend as a bare minimum, to get started? In that recent interview, Mike talks about being like the amateur in his room, able to create music with his computer. So if I were one of those aspiring amateurs - how would I get started? Please?
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Oct. 16 2005, 14:39

You say that you have played guitar for years, but have you ever composed? Have you ever tried to write it down? Have you ever played in a band or with more than one person?

Evidently, the main thing about Fruity loops is that it adopts the role of so many different aspects of the compositional process (hence some peoples' dislike of it)

To begin with, it's like a multitrack editor. So this is how you will piece together your music - by recording a section, and then splicing it with others to create mixes. Then, with waveform editing, you can introduce effects, like phasing, or echo, reverb, ring modulation, etc.

Then, it also becomes your soundboard. So, Alan, if you watched the recent 'Making of Ommadawn' video when the young Mike was fiddling with his guitar and the effects bank - well that's supposedly what Fruity loops can automate for you.

The biggest question is: do you want to compose like mike, in bitty little bits, and string them all together, or do you want to record long sections and just play about with them a bit? If its the latter, I'd suggest investing in something a little less complicated than fruity loops like Cool Edit Pro (which I use). It has the advantages of being a waveform editor and a multitrack recorder (so you can still do your composition in it if you want to) and you can add realtime effects to the timescale, but there are no direct effect processors as far as I am aware that will achieve the kind of sound effects as seen on the Making of Ommadawn video.

Otherwise, perhaps fruity loops or something similar is the way to go.

Of course in terms of hardware, that's a whole separate board game. You've got a PC, but have you got a soundcard that's high quality enough to handle what you are going to be doing with it? Given what you might want from it, I'd recommend http://www.creative.com/product....t=10496 the EMU 1820m. (120 db noise floor on ANALOG inputs / outputs... gotta be good) and also has digital in / outs capable of 192 khz @ 2channel.

Then you have to decide whether you want to use a direct source feed, or use an intermediate processor first (which, in effect, would add an extra layer of manipulation to fruity loops) and may ease your connectivity (as the back of a computer is rather small).


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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 16 2005, 17:05

Oh my goodness. Thank you for taking so much trouble to reply, arron - but I know so little that I can answer hardly any of those questions. I presume that Fruity Loops is a piece of software? Does it cost an arm and a leg? Can I afford it?

As for the hardware, the answer is no, in the first instance. But the big question is what is the minimum that would enable me to discover what I might be capable of, spending as little as possible.

I mentioned the guitar merely to show that I do have a musical background, so wouldn't be starting from a state of total musical ignorance. But in all other respects I don't know enough to understand many of your suggestions, I'm afraid. But presumably everyone has to start from zero at some point. How do they do it?
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Oct. 16 2005, 20:46

Considering that you are wanting to create synthesised music, I would also suggest something like FL Studio as a starting point, though you should bear in mind that it's not one I have great knowledge of myself. It seems to have a lot of the features I'd suggest looking for, the most important bits being a good selection of built in sound sources (drum machines, synthesisers, etc) and a sequencer.
The other you could look at would be Propellerhead's Reason, which again has a sequencer and a nice selection of sound sources. It doesn't have any provision for audio recording, which FL does, which may or not be an important thing to you (you could always run Reason alongside dedicated audio recording software if you so wished).

If you're just using the internal (i.e. computer generated) sound sources, I see no real reason to spend out a lot on a soundcard, as it won't have any bearing on the final sound which other people hear (though it will of course affect the sound which you hear yourself while mixing, which might bother you later, but probably not at the beginning when you're still working out how to just play a tune).

If you play the keyboard at all, you might find a MIDI keyboard useful for playing in parts, though it depends on what kind of feel you're after. I find that the genre of music which Mike is currently producing doesn't really work when parts are all hand played - they need to be more rigid. It can of course sometimes take a while to work out what should be absolutely rigid and what needs to be allowed to breathe a little more.

More on FL Studio can be found at http://www.flstudio.com/
Reason can be found at http://www.propellerheads.se/
Demo versions of both are available, so you can experiment with them before you buy. Neither cost an arm and a leg in software terms, but they're both considerably more than the price of a pint of beer.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 03:20

Thanks Richard, for both the advice and the links. The FL demo looks like the place to start I think. You're right about the soundcard issue - at this stage I'm only interested in discovering whether the idea is worth pursuing at all - and I won't know unless I try, of course!
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Holger Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 03:32

Good luck, Alan! I think it's a great idea.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 03:36

Actually I find myself defeated before I even start. The FL demo download requires me to possess something called an MD5 Hash program, which (incredibly) I have to buy; and I'm then given a link to a list of 16 programs which I don't understand at all. Even if I knew which to choose, I wouldn't be willing to buy and install an unknown program merely to download a free demo, when I'll never need to use it again.

Then I tried the other one, and discovered that Reason costs £300! That's a lot of bottles of single malt!

So.... maybe I'm temperamentally unsuited to this whole idea, and should just stick with my Martin!
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Holger Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 03:58

No, no! Come on Alan, it's way too early to give up!  :D

(PS: I'm sure there's free software around that will do what you want, I just don't know where to find it myself. But someone will know I'm sure.)
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Tansy Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 04:11

I have recently downloaded FL studio demo on windows xp and had no problem.Thinking of perhaps purchasing the basic version in a while as ATM just beginning to find my way around it. Honestly had no idea that all this could be possible as way before I had use of a pc,used to have thoughts of being able to create my own sounds.Now will just have to see how I go on with it!

@Alan - you shouldn't have to pay for a demo please don't give up on it,someone will appear with the answer.
:)
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 06:19

Quote (Groovy Granny @ Oct. 17 2005, 09:11)
I have recently downloaded FL studio demo on windows xp and had no problem.

How did you get around that MD5 Hash problem?

Later: Ah! I see! Reading more slowly and without panicking, I think I see that this MD5 Hash thing is really just a way of verifying that the program has been downloaded correctly. Is that right? It's possible to download and install it without bothering about that. Yes? (All may not be lost, Holger! )
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a_r_schulz Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 07:16

Alan, an alternative to these expensive 'pro'-Tools might be the products of Magix (though they may be looked upon as 'toys' by real professionals). Have a look at amazon.uk for 'Magix Music Studio'. They seem to have two lines of version numbers, one by year (with 2006 the latest), one by number (11 latest) and keep releasing versions with new features about once a year, so you should get 2-3 versions back even cheaper - amazon has basic 'MM' edition for ~7UKP, which might be already enough to get a taste...
You can also get a free limited demo from Magix US site (here) only (no idea why), called 'Audio Studio 2005'.
There's also Magix Music Maker (which is more focused on patching samples together and lacks MIDI support) and the pro tool Samplitude, though that is again more than a few pints' worth...
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 07:20

I am more than willing to discuss this with you off the board or on, at whatever length you feel you need to - I can describe all the technical bits im on about also if you feel the need - RE: the sound card i guess if your just testing the waters getting another asap wouldn't be the best idea; esp at the one's I referenced are £150. I would dispute Korgscrew's idea that changing a soundcard would not affect the output sound though - the 122 db SNR will definately pick up everything you throw at it, and it won't sound flat like some sound cards can do (through recording). Let me know how you want to proceed, I'd like to help if I can.

Also, I would like to reply to my original reply to you - you say that you'd like to find out what is the minimum you are capable of. Well, thats the tough decision really. The reason why Mike had lots of expensive hardware is that he couldn't achieve exactly the sound that he wanted without it - meaning that if you want a broad selection of 'base' sounds to play with, i.e. beginning instruments, if you like, then you may have to invest a lot of money getting all of the synth processors and things like that (some of which are software, which i presume you'd be interested in looking into) but if all you want is to record yourself playing your guitar and singing to it, then all you need is a sound recording program, like Cool Edit. I'm gonna pre-empt you and guess that you'd probably want something inbetween, so my advice to you is to familiarise yourself with the technology involved, take a look at the hardware and software available to you (and what they are capable of) evaluate which would be best to suit your desired compositional style, sound, muse etc. and then set it all up. Then you can start.


--------------
Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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Holger Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 07:20

Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 17 2005, 12:19)
(All may not be lost, Holger! )

That's good news. I just think it's always exciting when someone decides to break new ground for him- or herself. Whatever you end up getting, you're in for a treat. Yes, there will be initial problems. I'm sure you had them with the guitar when you started playing. But you will get around them, just as you did then, and I think I speak for everybody when I say you can count on a fair number of knowledgeable people to help you out around these parts!
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Tansy Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 08:33

Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 17 2005, 06:19)
Quote (Groovy Granny @ Oct. 17 2005, 09:11)
I have recently downloaded FL studio demo on windows xp and had no problem.

How did you get around that MD5 Hash problem?

Later: Ah! I see! Reading more slowly and without panicking, I think I see that this MD5 Hash thing is really just a way of verifying that the program has been downloaded correctly. Is that right? It's possible to download and install it without bothering about that. Yes? (All may not be lost, Holger! )


I just went onto FL studio website,clicked on try demo(or whatever it said)then chose where to download from for uk,and it somehow got onto my pc more by luck than judgement,has to be said!

A very kind & helpful person -Korgscrew, let me know about a couple of programmes .Also tried Sonar demo,but felt more comfortable with FL.Up to now haven't worked it all out as there's quite a lot involved but certainly not afraid of it and will get there,with a little more time spent(which dearly wish was more often,but then can't have everything) :)
Hope you're able to try out one demo or the other soon,lots of good people willing to help anyway :D  I was just so amazed by it all-fantastic!!!
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 08:37

Many thanks for all these encouraging remarks and suggestions. My knowledge is so negligible that I didn't really know even what questions to ask - but there's enough here for me to try out a few things and see what happens.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 10:10

Quote (arron11196 @ Oct. 17 2005, 12:20)
I would dispute Korgscrew's idea that changing a soundcard would not affect the output sound though - the 122 db SNR will definately pick up everything you throw at it, and it won't sound flat like some sound cards can do (through recording).

Ah...I didn't mean that. What I was saying is that if you're doing everything internally (i.e. working with software synths and rendering them straight to disk), they're not going through the soundcard, so it's not going to have any effect on what your listeners hear, assuming you're sending them the files which you've rendered from the soft synths. If you're outputting via the analogue outs to a recorder of some description, then of course the soundcard becomes important, and of course like I said, it affects what you hear when working, as you have to monitor through it. That's a massive can of worms though, as there are going to be loads of things which are going to be making a beginner's monitoring setup and environment less than ideal (like lack of proper monitor speakers, untreated acoustics, noisy computers, etc), so I say that for the moment it's better to forget about all that!
If I understand right here, Alan isn't looking to record anything from outside the computer just yet, so the input performance of the soundcard is even less important than the output.

I'd actually forgotten that Reason costs quite so much. You can get it a tiny bit cheaper if you buy from one of the many music technology retailers in the UK, but you'd still be looking at about £250.

Another alternative, if you just want to introduce synthesised elements into your music rather than producing stuff which is entirely synthetic, would be to get a hardware synthesiser of some kind. I can't think of anything to recommend that you could buy for less than a copy of Reason though, and it would offer far less features (the kind I'm thinking of would give you keyboard sounds and nothing more, which would be fine when combining with other instruments, but might be a bit limiting on its own...of course, if we're talking about recording instruments from outside the computer, we then go back to the soundcard issue, and also onto issues of microphones, mic amps and the like - possibly enough to send you running screaming! ). I personally get along a lot better when I have a proper, nicely designed control surface in front of me though - I find these on-screen knobs rather fiddly, and somehow they don't invite tweaking in the same way. There are also devices which provide a hardware front end to software synthesisers of course, but again, I suspect outside of the kind of budget we're looking at here.

I have heard good things about the Magix products, actually - again, not something I've ever tried (the only thing of that type which I have played with is Apple's GarageBand, which I can definitely recommend, but as it's only available for Mac OS X, I don't think it's a terribly helpful recommendation here), but I know at least one person who has one of their programs and enjoys using it. It looks like Magix Music Studio might offer something like the kind of features you'd be after - a few synthesisers, some drum machines, effects, the works really. I'm looking on their site at the features of Music Studio 10 - no idea how that compares with the Music Studio 2005 which amazon.co.uk has for £23, but I'd think at that price, it's worth a look. It'll at least give you a flavour of computer music, and if you don't like it, you can continue your search for software without having lost too much money, so I think I'd side with a_r_schulz here. You can always upgrade to the full blown Pro Tools HD rig later, if you really feel like it...
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 10:50

Many thanks again. Actually, I've now downloaded the FL Studio demo and during the ensuing hour or two I've experienced a pretty stark lesson. I'd lived with the illusion that it would be fairly straightforward to produce something vaguely reasonable with software of this kind, but actually it's a really daunting prospect to produce anything at all.  

For someone who for most of a lifetime has been able to just pick up a guitar and run with it more or less effortlessly, this is a pretty humbling experience - so if nothing else, my respect for the amazing things produced by the musicians who post work on this board will be further enhanced.
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 12:52

Quote (Korgscrew @ Oct. 17 2005, 10:10)
Quote (arron11196 @ Oct. 17 2005, 12:20)
I would dispute Korgscrew's idea that changing a soundcard would not affect the output sound though - the 122 db SNR will definately pick up everything you throw at it, and it won't sound flat like some sound cards can do (through recording).

Ah...I didn't mean that. What I was saying is that if you're doing everything internally (i.e. working with software synths and rendering them straight to disk), ...

ah right, sorry about that. I just sort of assumed that Alan would want to do at least some sound recording as he said that what he has got experience in was singing and playing guitar (naturally, one might use this as a starting point)

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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 14:30

Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 17 2005, 15:50)
I'd lived with the illusion that it would be fairly straightforward to produce something vaguely reasonable with software of this kind, but actually it's a really daunting prospect to produce anything at all.

Well you know...in a lot of ways, it is straightforward...just not necessarily easy.

There ought to be a few things in there to help you (though the demo is probably lacking things like a tutorial which you might otherwise find helpful). See if there are any example loops or anything you can start going then play with, just to break the ice a little.

Getting a simple rhythm going is a good start, then you can start adding more bits. What you come up with at the beginning might not be spectacular, but you'll learn from every thing you create, no matter how successful the results are.

I really think that just fiddling - trying out everything to find out what all the things do and how they work - is often the best way forward. Good luck!
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 17 2005, 14:34

Well, at present I feel like Gandalf standing in front of the gates of Moria, which stubbornly remain sealed no matter what he tries.

In my time, I've managed to put together a reasonable understanding of quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity, but the brain power needed to come to grips with FL Studio is way, way beyond that.
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