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Topic: Why do you think this is and how can we stop it?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
ThisName Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 09:33

Hi all, you may or maynot know that I am writing an extended essay on the development of mike oldfield as a composer between the albums Tubular Bells and Incantations. I am studying at a prestigious music college and so am aware of the stereotypes affixed to certain artists. There still is very much an elitist culture out there which I do not like one bit. I have told several people about my essay and its subject matter and as soon as I say Mike Oldfield, everybody instantly has a wry smile on their face, as if holding in a laugh and show great dismay at why a final year composer at a music college would write such a thing. This has led me to experience cold feet and doubts about my essay even though I have lots of good ideas and will be showing applied analytical knowledge alongside transcription.

My question is simply; Why does this happen? Why do people laugh, is it a lack of knowledge or just that the media has forcefed them stereotypes and untrue information about him as a valid artist? Could it be the dreaded Tubular Bells virus which has contaminated any future appreciation og anything he wrote afterwards?

It frustrates me and has made me unsure about my own beliefs in writing what should be a unique, illuminating and well researched essay on a British composer.

What do you all feel about this attitude to Mike and should I solider on regardless ignoring the heckles as I go?


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 10:36

Just to be practical about this - what do your mentors say about it? Not your fellow students, but the guys who will assess your essay? Do they think it's wise? Or do they think you're ill-advised to proceed?

If there are no official objections to the subject of your essay, then I can't see any reason for letting the prejudice of some of your fellow students get in your way.

I'm afraid the world of the arts is full of prejudice. You'd think that one effect of an involvement in the arts would be an increased clarity of perception and a wider understanding of what can constitute good art - but it doesn't always happen, unfortunately. There will always be people playing the game for the sake of one-up-manship.
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ThisName Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 10:50

Hey, well I haven't had any objections to my essay from the powers that be, well not yet anyways. I guess I was annoyed to find that every person I mentioned it to shared the same reaction and I just couldn't understand why. We have people doing essays on the Beatles etc so why should this be viewed any differently?

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familyjules Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 11:34

It's partly because he has never been reappraised since the "punk wars".

And it's because he stopped making those kinds of records (TB, HR, O, I etc) and started making commercial pop.

If he'd carried on disregarding the trends of the times, then his time would have come around again and he'd be cool to namedrop again, like Pink Floyd are once again.

But he made too many dodgy pop records in the 80s and 90s, so he kind of tarnished his credentials.

But it's mainly the power of media, I think.  If the hipper music rags were to once again profess a liking for Mike's early masterpieces, then everyone would be going "yeah - I always rated him!".  It's a hipper-than-thou snobbery thing brought on by the trends of the times.  The power lies with the critics.

That's my theory anyway.

Jules


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Ray Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 13:47

Quote (ThisName @ Oct. 10 2006, 14:33)
Hi all, you may or maynot know that I am writing an extended essay on the development of mike oldfield as a composer between the albums Tubular Bells and Incantations. I am studying at a prestigious music college and so am aware of the stereotypes affixed to certain artists. There still is very much an elitist culture out there which I do not like one bit. I have told several people about my essay and its subject matter and as soon as I say Mike Oldfield, everybody instantly has a wry smile on their face, as if holding in a laugh and show great dismay at why a final year composer at a music college would write such a thing. This has led me to experience cold feet and doubts about my essay even though I have lots of good ideas and will be showing applied analytical knowledge alongside transcription.

My question is simply; Why does this happen? Why do people laugh, is it a lack of knowledge or just that the media has forcefed them stereotypes and untrue information about him as a valid artist? Could it be the dreaded Tubular Bells virus which has contaminated any future appreciation og anything he wrote afterwards?

It frustrates me and has made me unsure about my own beliefs in writing what should be a unique, illuminating and well researched essay on a British composer.

What do you all feel about this attitude to Mike and should I solider on regardless ignoring the heckles as I go?

It is probably because they don't understand it, and know littler about the subject.

Richard Branson definitely didnt understand it - and hence the comment about Cloth eared nincompoops on the back cover of Amrok.

so Ignore them and get on with it....!  
Ray ;)


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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 14:13

That's the spirit!!
I agree!!!  :cool:


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Matt Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 15:25

Maybe your peers will show a little more respect if/when you get a better mark for your essay than they do for theirs...

However I agree with other posters, do your supervisors think it is a suitable topic for your course? You say "I haven't had any objections... not yet anyway". Might be worth checking with them if you are concerned. If they feel it is a suitable topic for you to write an essay on, go for it!


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ImAFoolAndImLaughing Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 17:38

Hey ThisName -

Personally I think it's a cracking idea for an essay, particularly given Mike's personal life and state of mind at the time. It'd be great to see a formal analysis of how these issues were reflected in these albums, and also perhaps how the records impacted on and were influenced by not only other music of that era, but also each other.

I say - go for it! And post some of it here, when you're done! :D


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moonchildhippy Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 19:04

Quote (ThisName @ Oct. 10 2006, 14:33)
Why do people laugh, is it a lack of knowledge or just that the media has forcefed them stereotypes and untrue information about him as a valid artist? Could it be the dreaded Tubular Bells virus which has contaminated any future appreciation og anything he wrote afterwards?

It frustrates me and has made me unsure about my own beliefs in writing what should be a unique, illuminating and well researched essay on a British composer.

What do you all feel about this attitude to Mike and should I solider on regardless ignoring the heckles as I go?

I think maybe it's a combination of things , Mike has unfortunately become an unwitting "victim" ( I hate the word victim,as it has such negative connotations)  of the success of Tubular Bells.  
I guess Mike has hardly lived the Rock and Roll lifestyle over the years.  Buying a house onthe Herefordshire/Welsh borders,and hiding from the media,not answering your phone and refusing to tour is not really what the media/Richard Branson expected,but then again Peter Green IS rock music's biggest recluse,and his reclusivness doesn't seem to have done him any harm.
In the post punk worldit would also appear that any guy with long  hair was instantly unfashionable.  Fromwhat I've read RB was not  exactly expert upon music,and getting Mike to make more commercial pop records was a BIG mistake      :( .

Anyway This Name , I say go for it great essay idea :)  :D  :cool: .


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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 19:37

Quote (familyjules @ Oct. 10 2006, 02:34)
It's partly because he has never been reappraised since the "punk wars".

And it's because he stopped making those kinds of records (TB, HR, O, I etc) and started making commercial pop.

If he'd carried on disregarding the trends of the times, then his time would have come around again and he'd be cool to namedrop again, like Pink Floyd are once again.

But he made too many dodgy pop records in the 80s and 90s, so he kind of tarnished his credentials.

But it's mainly the power of media, I think.  If the hipper music rags were to once again profess a liking for Mike's early masterpieces, then everyone would be going "yeah - I always rated him!".  It's a hipper-than-thou snobbery thing brought on by the trends of the times.  The power lies with the critics.

That's my theory anyway.

Jules

I have to agree with Jules wholeheartedly.

There are three reasons.

The first is that Mike was persuaded by Branson in the early 80's to switch to childish pop music. Of course some of these pop songs have aspects of Mikes brilliance in them but if I had never heard one of Mikes instrumental peices and was to judge him purely on these other tracks plus the silliness of tracks such as portsmouth, sailors hornpipe, the cukoo song and such, I would think he was crap quite frankly.

The second reason is the Tubular Bells tall poppy thing, where the belief is that is all he did followed by several repeats of the same thing.

And the thrid reason is the medias perception of him arising from the first two reasons which is what influences the general public.

He never had enough confidence in the early years to stick with what he did best and wait for his time to come around again.

But yes, the bottom line, as Jules has said, is the critics. And I think it's too late to change their opinion of him, unless his next return to the 70's style of classical music mixed with rock album turns out to be all that it promises to be, there might be a hint of a chance.

As far as should you go ahead with your thesis, by all means, if YOU believe Mike to be the true artist that he is. I fear that the real question you are asking here is not, 'Should I do my thesis on Mike?' but in fact 'Is Mike as good as we think he is or are all the critics right about him?'. Shame on you for even thinking that.

You are right about Mike, and not only is he musically exceptionally talented and diverse, but his personal life and struggles and how that has affected his professional life would make for fascinating reading, or don't you delve into that side of his work. It all affects his creativity and motivation.

Don't be disillusioned, when they scoff, you scoff right back.


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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Oct. 10 2006, 20:40

I wonder who your fellow students idolize?
You mentioned beatles and they made pop so Mike doing pop shouldn't be a problem for your mentors.They are professionals and know many things about this art form but so does Simon Phillips and you too, not to mention others.
Jules is right about trends such as Pink Floyd. Ten years ago Pink floyd was nothing but now I see people walking around with PF t-shirts on all the time. people ask me -hey, have you heard Ummagumma? I say -well...you didn't like it all those years ago but I'm happy you finally found it.
Anyway, it's not like you're making an essay on Jarre.
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SoimSandheaver Offline




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Posted: Oct. 11 2006, 06:48

I think it's as Mike Oldfield wrote for TBIII in "Far Above The Clouds":

Quote
And the man in the rain picked up his bag of secrets and journeyed up the mountainside far above the clouds. And nothing was ever heard of him again...except for the sound of Tubular Bells


I'm pretty sure there was a thread (on TBIII) about this quote being Mike talking about himself. His Tubular Bells was a major success, one of the iconic records of the 1970s, and soon after that, people began to forget about him. The punk movement came along and he was completely forgotten about as he did not know what punk was. He hasn't ever really recovered in the public eye, although he did garner success with Crises and QE2.  :(

Unfortunately, there are a few cloth-eared nincompoops in this world and some people haven't even heard of the great Mike Oldfield. Some people these days just think that because he had one great record in the 70s, they think he's all out-dated, and they forget he is still making records. I've turned a few heads to the more recent works of Mike Oldfield, not just some of the stuff of the 70s. Some people who are into metal actually seemed to like it, as well as some of the stuff from the 70s.

It's just that some people have typecast Mike Oldfield into being in the past, being old, and now he's not good any more. Of course, this is not true, and unfortunately, all we can do is just get by, stick by our values, and know that we are right.


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familyjules Offline




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Posted: Oct. 11 2006, 07:31

I don't even think that the problem lies with people thinking "he's not good anymore" but rather with people thinking that he never was any good ever.  And guess what?  Yeah, that's right - they've never even heard a Mike Oldfield album, they've just heard that he's not hip.  He's fallen off the critical radar.  Someone with hip credentials, someone respected, be they a musician or a critic is going to have to start praising him or this will never turn around.

Jules


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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Oct. 11 2006, 17:44

to be honest, its a generation thing i think, im 17, and noone expects me to say "i like mike oldfeild" when they ask me, and ive only ever in my whole life gotten one bad reaction to that, and that was from a 70's punk, to which i had no musical respect for anyways, as he started his short lived carreer doing three chord punk songs before quitting when all those other punk bands won him over.

Honestly, your mentors will more than likely love what your doing, if they have any shred of musical knowledge!

I dont study theory at school, and even though my school is apprently well renound for being a musical genius school, i much preferred being ignorant to the theory side of things, but one thing happned that really helped, My class tutor in morning registration is also the head of the schools music department, him and I got talking and at once i mentioned Mike Oldfield, he asked, "please tell me you want to follow in his footprints of the 70's" i laughed and said that yes id liove to do that, ever since, we've talked about ommadawn pt i's build up more than it was ever even discussed here!!

  Eventually, because of my dream to produce everything and play pretty much everything, he chose me along with two others to do a pilot scheme course in music technology, and the other two guys are bloody theory genuises!!!

all thanks to mikes influence on me!

i think what im getting at is, don't lose hope in Mike for your essay, ill tell you what though, ive heard more of my peer group hate the beatles than "the excorcist guy"

its all a generation thing, youll have lots to say in the essay, so why not i say!!


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Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
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Ray Offline




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Posted: Oct. 12 2006, 17:28

One other thing.... How many sites are there out there like this one for other musicians...

I dont knowe the answer because i've only looked for a few people I like and what did I find - a shell website with a few comments and some T'shirts for sale.

I cannot believe that Mr Oldfield does not have some special talent that strikes a chord (excuse the pun) in certain people.

You need to make sure your essay is not written only for those for whom the bell tolls... so to speak, otherwise you have a limited audience who will respect you work.

So go ahead an write you essay but  - put in some stuff that those for whom Mike doesnt ring their bell (oops pun No 2...) - so that they will be inspired to go and listen to some of the tracks.

But dont be worried if they dont recieve the message, at least you put it in.

Ray
:cool:


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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Oct. 12 2006, 17:53

Found this on You Tube, very relevent and very funny, well I thought so anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4U3gC7CqHk


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Ray Offline




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Posted: Oct. 12 2006, 18:20

Excellent Miss TubbbyBell,

I think you had it made specialliy!!!

Ray  :D   :D   :cool:


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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Oct. 12 2006, 18:50

No it wasn't me, promise, I just came across it on You Tube.

Funny eh! :D

Not so much of the TubbyBell please, I mean, it's hardly very flattering is it!


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 13 2006, 04:37

Quote (ThisName @ Oct. 10 2006, 14:33)
This has led me to experience cold feet and doubts about my essay even though I have lots of good ideas and will be showing applied analytical knowledge alongside transcription.

It might be important to realise that this isn't a problem that occurs only with Mike Oldfield. No matter what area of the arts you work in, there'll always be groups of people who dismiss what you're doing through ignorance, prejudice, or both.

You'd think that Bob Dylan would be so thoroughly accepted by now that you could talk seriously about him as an artist. Well, you can (just) - but among academics there are still not many who take him seriously. You'd think that abstract painting  might actually be acceptable as a serious and valid art form by now, having been around for nearly a hundred years! But I can tell you there are blindly ignorant 'experts' out there who still think that the work of some of the greatest abstract artists is a heap of nonsense.

I haven't attempted to write seriously about Mike Oldfield - but I have written seriously about Dylan, and about abstract painting, and at times I've met with some of the kind of responses that are discouraging you. What I usually find is that they're based on deep ignorance. The people who are most dismissive are the people who haven't actually listened; or who haven't actually looked for more than a few seconds; and they usually make their criticism without taking the trouble to consider the main points of your argument at all.

There's nothing really to be done about this, directly - you can't make those people read your work. You can't make them consider your argument. All you can do is present your case as clearly as you can, get it in print if possible (or on the web), so that at least it's available to be consulted by anyone who cares to. If your case is a good one, it will have an effect sooner or later. One thing's for sure - if you don't write your essay, nothing will, or can, change.
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familyjules Offline




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Posted: Oct. 13 2006, 06:16

That video is perfect.  "Why?" indeed!

Jules


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